The Tortured Poets Podcast Department

Jann Arden  0:07  
Hello, and welcome to the Jann Arden podcast and show it is Passover. And I'm here with Caitlin green. I'm here with Sarah Burke. Sarah Brooks at her parents home. Hello, Caitlin is in her home. She's freshly showered any of you guys that are watching us on YouTube today. We all look fresh. I've been doing a show for National Geographic narrating the secrets of the whales with a live Symphony Orchestra. So I had two shows yesterday sort of like Broadway, you know, you do an afternoon show. This one, however, was in the morning for 1700 children that were probably from five to nine years old. I've never seen more squirmy kids in my life. There was lots of chaperones, there was lots of kids trailing off to the bathroom with their teachers aides and their teachers. It was a nonstop cavalcade of commentary. I was worried because there's one point there's sperm whales, and I have to say sperm whales, and it's like saying fart in front of children, if you say something that triggers a child, so when I said sperm whales, there was giant giggles and then of course, I'm like, Oh my God, as I'm doing this narration. I'm like, oh, no, there's a scene coming up here. It's spelt mating. It's pretty benign. It's nothing verbally descriptive. But the sperm whale is, you know, this new guy on the block. And he's trying to show off for the ladies and his penis is out. And it's giant, and I'm thinking, God, maybe they won't notice the penis. Maybe they won't notice the penis? Absolutely not. That front three rows, I can hear their comments. These kids are like, Oh my God, it's huge. And then I could hear lots of shushing by the teachers. Ah, so we did that show. But I just thought at least I've got people in front of me that are really responsive. And there was like a few sad tears because there's a dead baby whale that the mother oh my god, the mother orca kind of pushes this baby around for weeks.

Caitlin Green  2:13  
It's a phenomenon unique to some forms of marine life. So anyway, that was kind of sad. Anyhow, wait. So hold on one sec. I have a question though. You're narrating this, like how, what does this look like? I feel confused. So it's a symphony, and also a movie. So

Jann Arden  2:25  
the movies playing it's a National Geographic, it's they follow these whales for five years. It's these really talented biologists and scientists. And they're talking about culture and community and the emotional family lives of all these different whales from all over the world. It's fascinating, beautifully shot. And then there's a 45 piece orchestra on the stage with the conductor from San Bernardino, Maestro Anthony, he's wonderful. And then I'm sitting next to Anthony. And I've got a screen in front of me. And it's like glorified karaoke. But it's very specific National Geographic wants this very consistent no matter where the show plays. So anyone that's ever done voice over work for actors and stuff like that, you get a blue swipe that goes across the screen for timing, I also have a countdown clock going 987, which tells me when to start the next line. And there are 145 cues. So I'm never stopping. I'm always interjecting as the orchestra is going behind me. And then the words like karaoke, light up and I have to match the gait of that because it has to match the screen. And it has to match the orchestration. So I'm literally have sweat pouring down my back hanging hanging on to the stand for dear life, thinking when can I take a sip of tea? Um, so I've screwed up a couple of lines that last few days. And I'm just like, I don't even know what the hell I just said,

Caitlin Green  3:47  
I'm well, it's a lot of words and a lot of things to say. I'm loving it.

Jann Arden  3:51  
And I'm learning a new skill. And I have one more show left tonight. But it's been sold out. I think it's wonderful. It's a wonderful concept. And if you love music, and if you love the movies, and if you love like this interactive thing, the kids really enjoyed it. Like at the end, I said, Did you have fun? They just went wild. So anyway, thank you for asking.

Caitlin Green  4:12  
They're great at doing really cool build out events, because we think of National Geographic, initially as this really amazing print organization, and then digital content online. But they do so many incredible events and travel tours, unbelievable once in a lifetime bucket list travel tour. So I feel like they've leaned into the experiences that are adjacent to their business and the work that they do and it really works for them. There's one National Geographic hosted event that happens in the Eastern Townships of Quebec that my husband and I frequently traveled to that part of Canada, and we keep meeting to go to and it's in the woods kind of on the side of a mountain because it's like a mountain a sort of ski prone region of Quebec, and they almost have an outdoor sort of planetarium. Hang with seating, and you got a little headset, and they have a National Geographic guide that's at the front. And they they guide you through the stars at night and man, and I just was thinking to myself, this is such an cool way to kind of like connect with nature and build out a plan around that just like the symphony because you think okay, well a movie about whales. That's great. But then have someone narrate it and then do it live with a symphony? What the,

Jann Arden  5:25  
you know, when you're talking about the future of animals on this planet and how we connect, especially young people with nature, like fuck you, SeaWorld and fuck you Marineland and all you assholes that are kidnapping and splitting up families. Now we know. Well, families are dependent, they could be stealing someone that is the teacher, the bullshit that they put these animals through. It's wrong. It's antiquated. And it needs to end we will leave it at that, because we have a lot to talk about today. I also just

Caitlin Green  5:57  
want to add in that I really hate marine land. And I can go on record as saying I've always hated them because I was taken there as a child. And my dad said, he remembers me looking at him. And I said, you know, all these animals seem really sad.

Jann Arden  6:09  
Well, yeah. It's inexcusable. And he's

Caitlin Green  6:12  
like, we drove all the way here. And I was like, yeah, no, I don't really like it. I think this is kind of a bummer. And I was right. The sad fin on the whale is because it's sad. It's like this stinky little dirty pool that it's living in. Yeah, that's hell. That's truly hell. So it should be thinking should have been closed long time ago. And I hate if you

Jann Arden  6:27  
are supporting animal tourism. Stop taking your children. I don't care. And yeah, if I've sound like I'm being preachy, I sure as hell am.

Caitlin Green  6:37  
And they might feel like me deep inside, but not be saying it like children are quite perceptive. So just, you know, they're

Jann Arden  6:42  
trying to please their parents and act like it's all cool. But it's not cool. But this is an experience that's so beautiful. So interactive. Kids get music, which is good for their happiness, their socializing, their depression, your anxiety, music is magical. And then to be inspired. And a lot of these stories are so uplifting, it's about reconnecting. It's about finding your last little baby. Well, yeah, there's some sad things. But you all kids need to understand that. It's so weird. And I'll just end with this. So this is how our convenient, invisible thinking works in our minds. That doesn't make sense to you right now. But it will. So I did this VIP little speech after one of the shows the other day. And it was all the donors and stuff like that. And they had all these hors d'oeuvres, and they had champagne and bubbly. And there are d'oeuvres were fucking fish of some kind, and a shrimp dinner, you know, and I said to them, I said, when I was talking about animal advocacy, I said, we have convenient lines. And I said, I'll give you an example. You know, you guys, we're all kind of a herd these big size when the mother whale was pushing this dead baby along. And I could hear the the air coming out of their lungs, and like, Ah, it's a sad part. I said, the snacks that you just ate, the things that you put in your mouse, which is so crazy to me. You don't think about what happened to that mother to that baby to that animal, the life that they lead gestation crates, walking around and shit up to their elbows in a lineup getting slaughtered. If we keep food invisible for our children, nothing is ever going to change. And they actually I thought they might, you know, leave the room. And I said, I'm not trying to shame you. I'm trying to make you understand the invisible nature of our food system. You know, here's one of the statistics. 1000 air breathing creatures. Yeah, like marine mammals. Yeah, 1000 animals are killed a day from fishing gear. In tank allistic.

Caitlin Green  8:43  
Giant nets like the like mass, the giant, the huge one,

Jann Arden  8:46  
it's small things to its plastics. It's everything. 1000 animals a day. And that's on the low side.

Caitlin Green  8:53  
The ocean is just so unexplored. It's like it to me, I think that they say that the relative to size, like the ocean is less explored than space even.

Jann Arden  9:00  
Yeah,

Caitlin Green  9:02  
I feel like I had read some sort of a statistic about that at some point. And it just seems like there could be so many amazing things down there that we don't even know about. And so we also then would not know about our negative impact on them. Because I'm like, I don't even think we know that they're all down there.

Jann Arden  9:16  
But have you heard about the assholes that are trying to drill a hole through the Earth? They're trying to make the lat the longest drill in the world to you know, yeah,

Caitlin Green  9:28  
I've been hiding in my land of Bravo because all of this news freaks me out. And then every once in a while it like, makes its way into my algorithm, like a flame throwing robot dog made its way into my algorithm today on x. And I just thought to myself, you know, we could stop inventing horrifying things that will eventually kill us all. That'd be just super for me.

Jann Arden  9:47  
Especially as a mom, you know, as a mom. Yeah. You know, you're thinking about well, and what life looks like him when he's 20 When he's 50 When he's 90, and I really I I feel for you. Anyway, there's lots of hopefulness. But I also feel compelled to say these things to groups of people they want. They're paying to have you standing in front of them. And someone asked me about the horseshit campaign and I launched into that and, and I had all these people sitting in front of me that absolutely had no idea that it was going on. But anyway, sure, we're getting somewhere, we do

Caitlin Green  10:24  
end up living in a little bit of a silo of information, like based on like, what you follow, and then what you're served. So yeah, we here at the Jana and podcast like to sandwich in the informative and sometimes dark with also the fun and lighthearted and perhaps less informative Well, entertainment.

Jann Arden  10:39  
We do have a guest coming on at the latter part of the show. But like we promised, we wanted to address the maid medical assistance in dying. The other side of the coin, and Mitchell is our guest today. And he does a lot of advocacy. He's had lots of mental health issues in his life and, and he gives us just a little glimpse of what's going on in that world. And so I'm looking forward to that and really grateful that Mitchell's joining us today. But as we move on, we don't want to be all gloom and doom. Taylor Swift had a new record coming out. And I think we're the only show talking about it. We're the only show talking about it. There's nobody else no one's talking about it. 31 Songs 31 Songs, I was admonished a few years ago, I put out a record that had 15 songs. Descendant had 15 songs, and my record company went crazy. I'm not I'm not Taylor Swift, but 31 songs. I listened to it yesterday, driving around in my car, and there's a lot to digest. And there's there's a lot of people that she's apparently singing about. People are dissecting every word that she says Kim Kardashian. Is

Caitlin Green  11:40  
Kim in there, Kim and Kanye. Yeah, well, just Kim actually, specifically in this one. Anyway, it's a really beautiful record.

Jann Arden  11:45  
And I know her fans are going to absolutely adore it and pick it apart and find their anthems and but comments, Caitlin, please,

Caitlin Green  11:54  
I listened to it because of mostly my interest in pop culture in general. So I just like knowing what everyone else is talking about and is into Yeah, less than I myself personally, would attend like a Taylor Swift concert, although I would actually think she'd put on my show. I watched the movie. You know, it's pop culture history. I like music. And I like entertainment. So like, I'm into it from like that. Like, I'm like, Oh, I'm a historian here. But I think that it is predominantly a heartbreak album. I mean, she does this cool thing where it's like an Amazon Music guided tour through the album and through her thought process and her writing. And I am a sucker for lyrics. Some people don't care about lyrics and songs they don't listen to them they're like is a catchy I don't care what anyone's saying. I immediately go to like lyrics genius and like, look up all the different meanings and any interviews. I want to know what people were thinking when they wrote stuff. And I really appreciated that she described this as kind of being a solemn, pining longing feeling that can be associated with breakups, relationships of any kind, also just longing for a time and a place in your life that is sort of escaping you. But I have to say that my favorite song on the album, from a lyrical perspective, after hearing her speak about it was the song Florida, because I think we know there's a lot of tropes about Florida that make their way into the news. You know, Florida man being a figure that we hear about all the time, because of all the unhinged people who live in Florida and the things they do that make headlines. But she talks about that people sort of in her mind, she watches Dateline all the time. And she said that people have these crimes that they commit where they immediately skip town, and where did they go to Florida, they tried to reinvent themselves, have a new identity blend in and she said when you go through a heartbreak, there's a part of you that thinks I want a new name. I want a new life. I don't want anyone to know where I've been or who I am at all. And so where would you go to reinvent yourself Florida. And it's with Florence Welch. I appreciate it. There were a bunch of articles where it was like who is Florence? Well, she can be here on heard on the new and I was like, oh my god, I'm old. I'm old now. Because kids today it's like when I was a girl, there was Florence in the machine. Like it's now they don't know who

Jann Arden  13:54  
but it changes so quickly. This is this is literally year to year in music now because things don't hold. There's lots of 92nd wonders and things that don't hit but we've talked about that before about making legacy artists but anyways, go ahead.

Caitlin Green  14:07  
I think it's good. It's It's It's heartbreaking. It's her stories. It's also just general stories of heartbreak. I think a lot of people anticipated that when she announced this project. She was going to be the scathing takedown of her ex Joe Allen who she was together with for six years some felt maybe they were secretly engaged, but it doesn't seem that way. It's I think she has more of a sense of humor than people give her credit for. I think that they like to paint her as this you know brokenhearted very serious serial dater and I don't think it's that I think she is I think she is lighter than she lets on especially with her songwriting. And she talks about the value and how she approaches songwriting of I get it all out of my songs, I talk about it and then I sort of move on. And because you're a songwriter, Jan I was you know, listening to her talk about this on this Amazon music thing and then reading interviews. I was like, just doesn't do most artists write from experience. And then how do you approach the thought of writing about people who exist in your real life on in your or songs, exes, whoever Well, I definitely

Jann Arden  15:02  
write about things that have happened to me or things that I'm going through or, you know, when I was younger, it was definitely more like Taylor, like at her age, it was very much about it was very relationship driven, and very much about who did me wrong and very much about pining yearning, wanting unrequited love, you know, it was all those things, and you hear that it's a time in her life. I mean, she will change that, too. If you listen to Leonard Cohen's stuff, through a timeline of his writing, you see very much that happening, and then how he switched gears into more universal themes and more, you know, a more political landscape and, you know, seething commentaries on how we treat each other, you know, first we take Manhattan and we take Berlin, I mean, when you look at, you know, his songwriting, you see the growth in a human being, so she's in her early 30s. And it's going to change a lot. And plus, she's riding a wave in this uncharted territory. We've never seen anything like this. She's in a tsunami, every day of her life, I would never want that ever. I never wanted but I don't think she aspired to that either. I don't, I don't think I've ever heard her talking about I wanted to be famous. I wanted to do this. She wanted to play music. She wanted to write music and be a musician. And then this thing happened.

Unknown Speaker  16:18  
She didn't want to prove some people wrong. Yeah,

Jann Arden  16:19  
and I think most artists do want to prove people wrong. This is not indigenous to Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift is not. She's not the only person there are 10s of hundreds of 1000s of artists out there that want to have their work acknowledged, they want to be seen, they want to make a living, you know, they say that most musicians 95% of them will never really have a public forum. You know, when you think back in history of someone like Vincent van Gogh, who painted over his paintings, because he couldn't afford canvas, he painted on wood, he painted on anything he could get his hands on. And he was very unwell because of the poverty that he kind of self inflicted on himself. So, you know, artists, I wish there was kind of focus that was distributed a little more evenly over, you know, a lot of other people that are really fighting hard. But yeah, writing is a is a really magical thing. I don't know how it works. I don't read music. I don't have any technical, academic sense of what the sticks and the dots look like on a page. I just write about things that seem important to me at the time.

Caitlin Green  17:40  
Have you ever written about looking x and then they access like, I heard that song? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jann Arden  17:44  
I wrote a song called all the little things eight, nine years ago, and it's very specific, all the little things you did to us all the promises, you know, but but I talked about like a giant rosary like this rosary is like 10 feet in length. It's huge wooden beads and a huge cross. That was given to me and I wrote about something very specific. And there was another thing. She sent me a rubber glove filled with candy hearts. Well, of course, I wrote about a rubber glove filled with candy hearts.

Unknown Speaker  18:16  
Did you warn her before writing?

Jann Arden  18:17  
No, no, I don't speak at all. But I heard through the grapevine that she told me to fuck off.

Caitlin Green  18:24  
You pass this along to Yeah,

Jann Arden  18:25  
she said that I was a fucking asshole.

Caitlin Green  18:30  
I mean, that's the thing. When you get involved with an artists like I have a friend who's a writer. And they'll put personal dramas or dramas, even a friends and family that they come to know about into their writing. And I don't know that they consciously do it. But it just works its way in there. And so sometimes, you know, you'd see something they'd done and think to yourself that's kind of seems like it's like about this person. And I just, I always wonder how the people the real people feel. So Taylor writes a lot about this guy who's the frontman of the band called the 1975 named Matt Haley. What

Jann Arden  19:02  
did Matt do? What did he do? Well, it's

Caitlin Green  19:05  
this flashy man romance. That was not I mean, it was sandwiched between Travis Kelce. And Joe Allen. And those are always

Jann Arden  19:12  
the most volatile, right? Those are the most like you throw your whole self into those stop gap relationships.

Caitlin Green  19:18  
And it sounds like she got a thrill out of dating someone who her fans and the media were not a huge fan of because he's kind of like a provocateur in terms of the quotes he gives and things he says on stage. Anyways, I just that was the surprise where people were like, What do you have this many songs about? This guy like we bet we he came and went, but then his family spoke out about it. Because being in the zeitgeist of Taylor Swift means that you're swept up in the current that she operates within. And so her his family gave quotes trying to say, Oh, we were actually really happy with how Matt seemed to haha and he's unhappy in his new relationship and because they just don't want to incur the wrath of the rabid fan base that she has. Well, was

Jann Arden  19:59  
it Will Travis Kelce, his ex girlfriend saying things on Twitter the other day going, Look, people move on. Yeah, she's literally went out with him for several years. And she's this beautiful woman. And anyway that the Swifties Jess, were in there, just ripping her apart. Like, I'll tell you I'm very worried about saying anything disparaging or the least bit. Like even even what I've said about the women in particular that are out there, making amazing music, but

Caitlin Green  20:32  
she acknowledges that too, you know, which is so funny because then as a result, like how some of her more unhinged fans behave, like contradicts the very thing that she would not like to have happen because she also talked about the song on her album called Clara Bow. And she said, I used to sit in record labels trying to get a record deal when I was younger, and they'd say, you know, you remind us of insert name of other female Popstar here and then they'd say something disparaging about them so that but you're this You're so much better than this. And she said that's how we teach women to see themselves as you know, you could be the new replacement for this woman who's done something great before you so she said she chose a talk but in the song about women who have done great things in the past and have been these archetypes of greatness in the entertainment industry and she said the you know Claire bow was this first it girl Stevie Nicks was this a you know, kind of amazing icon example for women in music and so, but then you think about how big will comfort Travis Kelce is x or, you know, they get involved in her alleged beefs with other famous women are the falling out of her friendship and you're like, I don't know that she wants you to totally do this though.

Sarah Burke  21:37  
I think with Kim, I saw something this morning that was like Kim lost like 100,000 Instagram followers or something?

Jann Arden  21:44  
Doesn't she have 78 million or something?

Speaker 1  21:47  
So the story is just in case like, you know, this is unfamiliar to anyone listening is it is to me, okay, okay, so And Caitlin, you can help me out here. But there's a video about permission for Kanye to say something about Taylor from years ago that like Kim fabricated and then there's basically a song directed at Kim that says, me and your daughter are the only person that knows this song is about you. It's like a nice little statement.

Caitlin Green  22:12  
Because Northwest Kim and Connie's daughter is famously a fan of Taylor Swift. So Taylor is kind of reaching through the, you know, the speakers and is saying, Yeah, your daughter is a fan of me and the songs about you being not so great to me. And I mean, look, there's lots of things you can you can love or not love about the Kardashian family. But I do feel like the one of the lesser interesting things about them is the beef with Taylor, because everyone comes for Taylor. She's like the Drake of pop music.

Jann Arden  22:38  
Everyone wants to pull down what rises? Hi, tall poppy syndrome. Anyway, I'm curious to know what you guys think of what Taylor's life will look like in 20 years? What? Like, what will the landscape be of her legacy? What will her career be doing? Like I have lightened bed and thought about? I hope I live long enough to see where this lands and how she deals it or if she's on a talk show 15 years from now going, oh my gosh, well, yeah, there was a time when you know, we did stadiums with 90,000 people and and now she can't sell, you know, a pair of her old socks. I'm watching I know. But I'm just wondering what happens because I'll tell you this right now, when you look at you know, Abba, when you look at Blondie, when you look at the Beatles, The Beatles used to play in stadiums with 90,000 people, they didn't have the gear to even accommodate people couldn't hear them over the screaming. And obviously it leveled off, the band broke up. And they think back upon those times. And it's much different now. For them in their 70s and 80s. So, like David Cassidy, who was on the Partridge Family was a phenom. He couldn't like in Japan, or South America, there was hundreds of 1000s of people. And I'm not exaggerating, in parks around hotel rooms, he couldn't move. And then we see a fellow 30 years forward who is can't fill a nightclub because the fans have aged out as well. So what do you think

Caitlin Green  24:13  
she feels to me now? Like, you know, it could be I look to you know, contemporaries in the sense of a singular like a diva. Like, you know, what happens to someone like Celine Dion? You know, where do they wind up? And could that be the case for Taylor? You know, will she be interested in something like a Vegas residency? Perhaps, will she be like an Elton John where you know, she has 300 Farewell tours but that they're all quite you know, like they're, they're successful. We know what what you're going to do what younger art is, you're going to still work with younger artists. You know how Madonna never really reached across the aisle and said, Leah work with Lady Gaga. There's all these comparisons and she's a big deal. Like that didn't really happen. But Elton John's like, ya know, I want to work with dually but I want to reach out to Ed Sheeran. So Will she do do that I don't know, I see her as a very, very smart businesswoman. And not necessarily someone who is going to avoid the limelight, but who would want the limelight to exist on her terms. So if she could make a tidy profit, stay true to herself Vegas residency, I wouldn't rule something like that out. And also, I could see her regularly working with younger artists who were up and coming that she went into the studio with and you see her pop up on a song and everyone gets a thrill out of it like I could, I could see that path forward for her. For sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1  25:31  
You know what I could see. I could see her using a pseudonym, too, right? Yes. With all sorts of up and coming people that we wouldn't even find out for years. Yes, I would say that I've come into appreciating and respecting what she's done. Only in the last few years, like when her album folklore came out is when I was like, Oh, she worked with Aaron Dessner from the National. I think like her constant reinvention of the way she writes the way she sings the vocal work she did, exploring other genres. Even on this new album. I heard a lot of like, Kate Bush type sounds like

Jann Arden  26:01  
I heard Lana Del Rey. Yes,

Speaker 1  26:04  
yes. And the idea of what she did with like her music library, because she didn't like the sale that went on without her knowledge, like all of that, to me is iconic. Yeah. Oh, very

Jann Arden  26:14  
much. She's transformed the way we think about what is possible in this industry. And getting back to your Vegas residency, Caitlin. I really see them building a 30,000 seat stadium there, that's a standalone, they have the room, they're in the goddamn desert. And I think if she chooses to not do that grueling around the world, and maybe wants to have a child, well, I don't even think that's big enough for her. But something something literally that can accommodate imagine 30,000 people coming in for two shows a week into Vegas. I mean, they have 300,000 people probably coming in there and in the course of a week anyway, but it would be an economy in and of itself to have her do that. And to stay there like to, to live in New York and just to fly in, you know, for a couple of shows on Friday. I really see that happening. So that's that's good. She

Caitlin Green  27:06  
puts on a great she puts on a great show again, I haven't seen it, but I've watched her eras tour movie, and I've seen enough footage of her shows online and just thought you know, this that would be she she puts effort and she's like really put in the work. And everyone loves an artist that reinvents themselves with each album and loves a theme. I mean, Beyonce does it so every artist has done this. So yeah, I'm into it. I don't know that the album style wise is like a repeat play alone for me. But I'm not like that anyways, like I don't listen to a ton of Taylor Swift in my spare time, I have my favorite songs. And then that's about it.

Jann Arden  27:38  
It's gonna be really interesting to see it all unfold. And at the end of the day, Chris and I talked about this my road manager, Chris, the JOY Yes, that this person spreads across this planet. In music in general, Beyonce, Radiohead kiss, the joy that music spreads. Because normally when people gather in these modern times it is to protest. It is to put fist in the air it is to stop war it is to rage against the machinery of rogue governments. And I mean when we see what's happening, and then music drops itself, like a care package and a parachute in the middle of this desolation. And it just lights up, people light up. And they leave after three hours of listening to something. And I'm very proud to be part of an industry to be a group of artists and thinkers and doers that are somehow maintaining the status quo and the balance of this planet. tipping off into oblivion. There is art at the end of the day. And having said that, a new season of Hacks is coming. You like it? Are

Caitlin Green  28:48  
you a hawks fan?

Jann Arden  28:49  
I'm in love with every character. I want to lay on top of them and move around. I I love Jean smart. I just, I mean, to see a 72 year old woman walk into a sexually charged role and a funny role on this powerhouse. It is so refreshing to see on ingenue that's 72 years old.

Caitlin Green  29:15  
I know she's fabulous. And I also find that this in a world in an entertainment industry that kind of regurgitate the same content over and over again, whether that's through sequels or prequels or whatever. This feels fresh. This feels exciting. It's why I think I liked succession so much. I think it's what HBO does so well. And it's funny and it's a little 30 minute piece of comedy but also they touch on real things to writing. The writing is fantastic. And yeah, I mean Jean smart and then I forget the name Hannah. Hannah. Last Name, though who plays Ava in this in the in the show. She's so good. And she cast. Yeah, and just that again, well cast casting This year next year coming up at the Academy Awards is going to be its own award. And I've said that it should be for so long casting should be its own category at the Emmys and at the Academy Awards, because it's really important and they friggin nail it for Hawks. So it's coming up may 2 And if you aren't watching it oh man get to

Jann Arden  30:15  
watch and who plays the nutty secretary? That wonderful? Oh, I love her Megan Stalter Megan Stalter is so hilarious she's out doing stand up. And I know that you really enjoy stand up Caitlin going and seeing live comics and do their thing but yeah, she Meg is she's out there she does show she sells out in like New York, all these really cool clubs. And she does that really zany take on woman who tries to bring Chihuahua into restaurant like she takes on these. She just takes on characters. And she's talking to an invisible person off camera like her husband or what it is so funny. I got follow her too. And I just get such a kick out of her and her body positivity. Yes. You know, she's plus size girl and she makes you feel like honey, you ain't ever gonna chance to touch this.

Caitlin Green  31:05  
She's Yeah, her handle is Meg Stalter. And she's so she's just funny and inventive. And it's like all these great character actors like Caitlin Olsen's on it and I'm a huge always Sunday fan and I think she plays Jean smarts daughter on the show and she's so so excellent at it. And also shooter McGavin you know, Jean smart sort of on and off love interest. I know from Happy Gilmore, a Christopher McDonald and so he plays he's it's just yeah, casting perfection hilarious. Only 30 minutes I ever increasingly appreciate a 30 I've rewatched the whole thing. Yeah, I'm gonna watch it again before that Mason. Yeah,

Jann Arden  31:35  
I rewatched the whole thing and I was equally as enchanted and realize that I'd miss things. The Maple Leafs the Toronto Maple Leafs are in the playoffs. Calgary never makes it I hope

Speaker 1  31:45  
they still are by the time this episode me and your husband needs to hang out. If you don't mind. I will relieve you of Kyle just send them over and we will cry together the leafs

Caitlin Green  31:55  
are cursed in the playoffs. They're really cursed against Boston. I hate when we play Boston. So anyways, I've absorbed an inordinate amount of stress because my husband has leafs disorder where every year he gets his hopes up and becomes just so deranged level sad, happy. It's all the emotions at every possible intensity level for the duration of the playoffs until they are inevitably in the past I don't want to say forever but until they have been ejected from the playoffs. So Sarah, do you have this?

Speaker 1  32:23  
Yes. There's always a little bit of the mental health problems with this time of the year I keep my my psychotherapist on standby for when things get to art. But I feel like me and my dad have like a really realistic look at things where, you know, on Saturday night, he's like, Oh, I better put this on. Although last night during the Passover Seder dinner, it was nice to run back and forth and check the score.

Caitlin Green  32:45  
It does break that up.

Unknown Speaker  32:47  
And we won last night.

Jann Arden  32:48  
Well, I'm cheering for the Oilers, because they're in Alberta. So I'll do that until I can't do it anymore. And then I'm going to swap over to Toronto, but whatever happens, and I am not a sports person. I think I like it. In theory. I think it's fun to go see it in person. I never really know what's going on. But I'm not I'm not a sports person.

Caitlin Green  33:07  
I'm from Toronto, so I really feel like I had no choice. I had to be a Leafs fan. It's like you're born into it. As tragic as it sometimes may be. But um, yeah, I went to a game this year and it was really fun. I went to an excellent game. Austin Matthews scored a hattrick he is really a generational talent. He's fantastic. And he's a lot of fun to watch.

Jann Arden  33:23  
No clue who that is.

Unknown Speaker  33:25  
He got his 70th goal last night.

Caitlin Green  33:27  
He did. Yes. Okay. I'm

Jann Arden  33:28  
I'm now losing control of the show. So I have certain LS sports. I have no idea who these women are.

Caitlin Green  33:34  
Oh, wait. Do you want to do something fun because yes for the Edmonton Oilers. I think he does. Oh, I hope he does. Zach Hyman. Did he move to the Edmonton Oilers? Edmonton Oilers? Yes. Haha, I know a thing. Okay. So, Zach Hyman who used to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs and was a very beloved player here, moves over to the Oilers. And guess who was in the suite next to me Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift right after my son was born. His son and him were right next to our little suite. And and we only knew that because we were doing the hallway walk with the baby up and down, you kind of shuffling around mixing it up. And my husband the, you know, rabid Leafs fan was just looking around and the door was open and he was like, Oh, that's a crime. And I was like, I have no idea who that is. And then he got very clever so

Jann Arden  34:18  
ah, that's that's a nice little thing. I mean, I I know that a lot of you listeners have we've lost you now. We've we've lost you but we're gonna follow along. We will follow along and I and I think it's always great for community like I said, hard times it's great for people to gather, enjoy, even if there's some disappointment. Somebody's got to lose, right? Somebody's got to lose.

Speaker 1  34:41  
And if I call in sick to the podcast next week, you know exactly what's going on. And

Jann Arden  34:45  
you know what, I can do the whole show by myself. I'm going to just get make Statler or Jean smart. Okay, I know how to get out of this hockey conversation. We're going to take a quick break and we're going to talk about something really important. Michel Tremblay is coming up in the The last segment of the show and we're going to be addressing some of the made misconceptions that I certainly had. I don't go away you're listening to the Jann Arden podcast and show I'm here with Caitlin and Sarah Michel Tremblay is up next.

Welcome back to the Jann Arden podcast and show of course, I'm here with Caitlin green and Sarah Burke and a very, very special guest. today. We're here with Michel Trombley, an advocate who's fighting for a better future for all Canadians with Disabilities. Mitchell, thank you for joining us. And I want to just ask how you're doing today. Thank

Mitchell Tremblay  35:41  
you so much for having me. I know, time is short. Today, I'm still kind of reeling from the budget from the upset on the candidate disability benefit. I'm pretty sure my entire community is just judging by the pulse on Twitter, but pushing through it and just trying to keep that awareness train going. Yeah.

Jann Arden  35:58  
Last week, the federal government announced the new disability benefit. And the reaction really falls short, doesn't it? Mitchell? I mean, very short, can you reflect on how you felt hearing, or you know, reading about it, because it was a much anticipated supposed to be this big thing from the federal government to finally, and the disparity between the poverty line and people with disabilities in this country.

Mitchell Tremblay  36:24  
Yeah. And it turned out to be an absolute failure. And I've had a lot of time to work on it. This benefit was first conceived 10 years ago, and then the last election killed it in its previous bill form before it could become law. And so just last year, finally, we became it became law, the the the actual act itself and went through the Senate, and we were watching on Twitter. We were little watch parties during the human committee and all that. And we were sending in letters, and we were pushing for certain things. One of the things that definitely failed was having the disability tax credit, as a qualifier for people. This goes contrary to the accessible Canada Act, which is trying to break down Canada's barriers for people with disabilities by 2040. And it really upset a lot of us because this isn't going to reach the people that needs to, if you think about people who are homeless, like I have been seven times, we aren't signed up for the disability tax credit. We can't even get doctors right now to be able to fill out these forms. Yeah. So when they rolled that out, and they said they were going to give 243 million, just to the doctors and the clerks in the forums, and then 41 million going on words. And then for us $6.66 a day, which to me sounds like a deal with the devil. It's

Jann Arden  37:36  
it's not even a cup of coffee. Listen, it It's deplorable. And Caitlin and Sarah and I certainly are not the Government of Canada. And I'm going to get to a question that the three of us have about how ordinary people can help. But first of all, I do want to address the thing that connected us, Mitchell, which was on Twitter, we did a brief story that I was quite naive about, about the maid program, the medical assistance in dying that has, you know, been available all over the world, really, and in Canada. Now, these last few several years. Anyway, we talked about a personal experience that I had had seeing my friends in laws who were 92 and 93, respectively, choose to end their lives that way, after a very nice, long life, not dealing with mental illness, but having just a lot of physical problems at 93. And they chose that and of course, in my naivete. I'm like, revering it and cheering it on. And, and we never represented the other side of this coin. So I really want to speak to that Mitchell of, of what it is about made that causes so much discomfort in the marginalized, disabled, disabled community. And obviously, I was quite blind to it. And I want to get your take on that. And please walk me through of why made is is kind of a horror show. For people that don't have any support out there.

Mitchell Tremblay  39:01  
Sure. Your story was one of the ones that falls under track one, and it's one that I completely understand. And I'm okay with me for track one for about 99% of the cases. These are people who are at their their life's end, they have a foreseeable death or dementia or some of these mental disease when you get to track two, it's non terminal anymore in track two, it's no foreseeable death. And so you can apply and the most recent case was out of Quebec it was the man with the bed sores who was left in the emergency room and it brought him to a point where he would qualify for track two and that's the most concerning part about track two, the government already delayed, opening it up for it solely mental illness, which was my qualifier, which I have had seven mental illnesses since I was 17 years old, and they've only worsened under things like malnutrition, homelessness, you know, this this fight that we're doing living, you know, sometimes 30% below the poverty line, sometimes more depending on what you're wearing. It is. And the thing that's really terrifying is that, you know, women are disproportionately affected men 24% chance of getting disabled women, it's 30% of getting disabled and the stories that I'm hearing, and I'm speaking from the privilege of being a white male. But the stories that I hear, including covering on my podcast are of women terrified of going to the streets of, you know, sexual assault of abuse of halfway houses that turn people in to being sex trafficked, and all this and they're going to choose made instead of being homeless, again, which is the same thing that I'm doing and what a lot of people are fearing. And there's so many other things that we're dealing with children's aid services are taking away kids because the ODSP amounts are nowhere near or h or AAS, or Ei, depending on which province you're in. And we're really surviving on one meal a day with our housing just in jeopardy. I was just homeless four years ago, and almost was again last year with one of those illegal n 12 evictions. And so when you think about all that stuff, and specifically in my case, the homelessness caused more mental illness, I've developed agoraphobia over the past seven times, fear of leaving home fear of leaving my door unlocked people going in my room being homeless again. And with the agoraphobia, I don't know how I would survive this time. And a lot of us just don't see a future because we've lived like this for so long. And we're not just talking about people who were born with visible minority or visible disabilities. We're talking about workplace accidents, we're talking about car accidents, where it's no fault of their own, and they're developing these issues, and then they can't get the help that they need. Do you suffer? Do you starve? Or do you

Jann Arden  41:35  
choose made and I think that's the thing I was naive about is that you're saying that made for some people who are in these horrible positions feel like my better option, other than waiting for the government to step up and actually give me a life that is not below the poverty line, people are reluctantly, being forced to choose the medical assistance in dying, rather than risking not having their rent, not having medical access, not having psychiatric care, not having the drugs that they can't afford. So I didn't, it didn't even cross my mind, Mitchell, I'm so sorry.

Mitchell Tremblay  42:21  
It doesn't cross many minds. It's really hard for us to organize, it's really hard for us to protest. And I became obsessed with me in my last place when I was laying on a futon on a floor and a moldy room with a sick cat. And eventually, he became so sick that, you know, I was doing GoFundMe, so I was trying to raise money given a medicine, and he just gave up and I had to put him down myself with ketamine and Alfian, and an eyedropper. And he was so skinny, he hadn't eaten for days, I was spending all my own money on different types of cat food. And when that happened, it really snapped that I just killed my best friend out of poverty, and that I was alone now. And so I threw myself into advocating and I've gone nonstop for two years, sometimes 10 hours a day, trying to bring that awareness that you just talked about was missing.

Jann Arden  43:03  
So and we do need your advice here, Mitchell, because you're you've been on the front lines of this, you are in a community that once again, has been let down by the federal government, I think a lot of us saw, Oh, you know, billions of dollars are being out located for disabilities in this country. And then when you actually do the math, and look at the ridiculous fucking amount of money, that is actually going to be in the hands of people that you know, are relying on food bags, and the help of friends and GoFundMe is in all the ridiculous things that you're resorting to and having to think about getting medical assistance in dying, because you simply cannot afford to live your lives. This has been a disappointing, but like I said, we're not the government. But how can Sarah, and Caitlin and myself, what can we do? It's

Mitchell Tremblay  43:58  
a really good question. And it really depends on on your capabilities and the options that you have at your disposal. Right now. It's really listening. I think the most important thing that Canada can do is listen to people with disabilities because you have not been listening for decades, and I've lived those decades and I've been on the wayside. I've been you know, sidelined by society. And I'm not the worst off there is I'm someone who has just enough that I can do this burning the candle at both ends advocacy, until I'm replaced. It's a cycle. I'm an elder in the community important to we don't live long. So you know, this is this is how we're trying to reinvent advocacy. So to really listen to people to look for those stories to look for the articles and see both sides of the coin because I totally was beautiful. That was how it made track. One should be its end of life. It's over. But right now, with mental illness looming that the government had to postpone it three years to 2027 and what people are doing right now is removing their organ donors cards. Because this is the other disgusting thing is that we're just cattle to them now we're too poor to live in something out there is too rich to die. It just seems like a huge problem where we're being forced this made all of a sudden, there's a whole bunch of new hearts and livers and all this and we never had a chance. And so organizations like dying with dignity, who are out there pushing for everybody to have access to me to essentially legalized suicide. In a society where we have, you know, we still have poverty, which is supposed to be eradicated by 2030, under Global Goals, laws with the UN CRPD we, we have so many things that we're supposed to be doing. All of this just seems like it was the wrong direction, you know, and we need people to listen to us and to hear our lived experiences. And to bottom up from trying to communicate and being told, we're mooches we're drug addicts, you know, and we're not so image and listening would be the most important stuff for me.

Jann Arden  45:55  
Well, that is something that we are absolutely going to be doing, I know that I am going to be much more sensitive. And to think about both sides of this coin. You've educated me today. And you've educated you know, Sarah, and Caitlin, this has been a conversation in our last few podcasts, Michel, your comments to me on Twitter, which I read in earnest, and I took them in, and I felt like I am empathic. I'm an artist, I'm a creator, you know, I've had my share of stuff. I grew up with an alcoholic parent. And I had a brother who was in jail for almost 30 years, who was an addict, and he lost his foot a couple of years ago to, to lots of health related issues. But you know, he's one of those guys that he doesn't even qualify for a show or any of the programs. He's out there. You know, he's he's got a job. He's He's 65. This year, I have seen him going through the struggles. And obviously, he's lucky to have my brother and I are still alive to kind of help him along once in a while. But I think these programs need to be reassessed, reevaluated. And I think the money does need to be there. I think it's apathy, apathy is taking over the world, we see it with disabled people, we see it in nursing homes, extended care, like COVID cracked open, a massive cavern of this disparity in this country between the haves and the have nots. And it's time that this ended, and I hope anyone listening to Mitchell store right today. And Mitchell's friends, really understands that they are getting a really shitty end of the stick by our government.

Sarah Burke  47:41  
I was just going to ask Mitchell, like, we're gonna put a link to your podcast in our show notes this week. But is there anything that you would love for people to read up on a resource that you would want us to include along with your podcast,

Mitchell Tremblay  47:56  
um, maybe the Al Jazeera documentary, they came from another country and they covered it with a sort of a balance that the other documentaries that not you know, didn't, really didn't have, because they weren't Canadian based. So maybe that one because it really kind of it puts it into place, it really kind of underlines what's going on. Well,

Sarah Burke  48:15  
thank you so much for like being open to meet with us today, and to help us share some of the story that we weren't sharing originally. And we hope that we can keep this line of communication open with you in the future.

Jann Arden  48:27  
Thank you so much, Mitchell, we really appreciate your time. And I know it takes you a lot of preparation, both mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, to do these, this advocacy work, and we appreciate it more than you know. So please look after yourself. I'm hoping things get better. And you deserve better. And we all need to do better, and be aware of what the fuck is going on with disabled people in this country. So thank you very much.

Unknown Speaker  48:54  
Thank you again, have a great day.

Jann Arden  48:56  
That was incredibly enlightening. And I know we can all do better. So yeah, it's good to look at the other side of things and to understand, even Mitchell is saying, hey, it's a great program if you're on tier of level one, and but having to think about that as a solution to your life, so

Sarah Burke  49:13  
and his advice for regular people was actually pretty enlightening to

Caitlin Green  49:16  
listen. Yeah. And I do think too, it underscores the ability for everyone to have a meaningful and constructive discourse on social media. Because there are so many, I think opportunities to align yourself with people who are like minded and would be interested in hearing your side of things if you weren't so busy yelling and swearing at everybody. So our good friend Mitchell is a wonderful example of that, because you can reach out from a respectful place and then actually get somewhere Hey, it is possible. Yeah,

Jann Arden  49:45  
we love it. And that is the magic of social media. We're not going to sit here on our hands and not respond to the other side of any of the things that we talked about. Except my music. There's no question on how brilliant I am. And listen, I played a 341 Are people at a time so fuck you can't knock that right? No.

Caitlin Green  50:02  
Three to 400 People can't be wrong.

Jann Arden  50:05  
70 100 children yesterday.

Caitlin Green  50:07  
Hey, you don't go well. penises? Yeah. Oh

Jann Arden  50:10  
man. Anyway, thank you so much, Michel. Thanks to everybody out there. And yeah, let's remember to listen. And let's remember to listen to the Jann Arden podcast. You can go and subscribe to us that way. We'll show up in your inbox every week. And you won't have to look for us. You can rate us that helps us getting people to find the podcast. And thanks to the women in media network for podcasting us. The women in media Podcast Network. Yes, that's it. Thanks to Caitlin green and Sarah Burke, as always, we'll see you next week. We've got lots of fun things planned for the summer and we always love to hear from you Jan Arden pod is our handle on all the formats you can find us don't get sick, Caitlin, for the love of God. Actually,

Caitlin Green  50:53  
I'll try to get better I guess.

Jann Arden  50:55  
We'll see you next week toodledoo