Big Hormones, Small Achievable Goals

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gracious Good afternoon, good morning. This is the Jann Arden Podcast. I'm here with Sarah Burke and Caitlin Green, who are in their respective homes. I'm also in my respective Canadian home colder than I don't even know it's minus 30 when I got up. So of course, I got up, filled the tea kettle with the boiling water, threw it up in the air to make snow before we get into the show today and find out what the girls have been doing. You not going to miss this Meredith McNeil and Jennifer Whalen, who are very well known for Baroness von sketch, among other things, this hour has 22 minutes, and anyway, small achievable goals. Is in season two on CBC, and they are the showrunners, the creators, the actors. They are so frickin hilarious. Please stick around for this conversation with them. Guys right off the top of the show, tell me about something good that has happened to you this week, because the world continues to get stranger and stranger.

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What has been happening? Can I just say that will has been on like the a sweetie pie tear like he's just been absolutely a dream. His easy ease at his daycare, are just giving us the nicest, most heartfelt feedback. They just say he's making leaps and strides. He is cuddly. He is snuggly. He is funny. We had a really nice family day. Long weekend with him. We went to the park. We saw his friends, my niece and nephew and Kyle's sister came. They stayed with us overnight, so there was, like a little cousin slumber party, a sleepover moment, and he loved that. So I don't know, I feel like I've been soaking in extra will time, which I really enjoyed. I had for the first time. Dan's kids were here. They came to the condo and had a slumber party. It was impromptu. I love okay, my girlfriend was leaving. We had a ski day, and then he's like, Do you want some company? Like, we're already halfway to you. We're in Collingwood, we've been snowboarding. Do you want some visitors? And we took them to Zootopia too. Oh my gosh, which I enjoyed in theaters. Loved it. We took them to the aquarium and we took them swimming. So we did so much in 24 hours. And I have never been so exhausted in my life. Makes you wonder how full time parents do it. Or Further to that,

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I literally was sitting there thinking, How does Caitlin do this? I was in my head the whole time. How does not that? I didn't love it. She has a great partner. She's got an extended family. Yes, she's got friends that are helpful. When you have that network, obviously it's it's doable, and it does take a village. You think about how people did this. 300 years ago, you had a community. What was it? Hillary Clinton, it takes a village, you know, to raise a person. And I believe that. And I see thortis, you know, my partner has

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seven year old twins. So much like you, Sarah, I'm venturing into Guardian person. And, yeah, they have, I think, one hour a day tablet time. She's quite strict about it. She works how they get their internet on those tablets, on her phone, and it's on a timer, and when they are not quite finished a game, and they will literally bargain for six or seven minutes.

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It's amazing, okay, if you're gonna put your things away or do this, and you can have those six or seven minutes. But she said it's just a godsend when you're on your own, yeah, to have that. But I love the fact that you, three months ago, could not have imagined, you know, putting the cushions out on the floor in your condo and having a three and a six year old crashing out, which is wonderful, and it really reminds you how quick change manifests itself, you know? And it's just like this poof moment. And I am a believer now in the kind of change engagement party, yeah, okay, we want to hear your good thing. Let's hear it. My Well, I did. I an engagement party. It was really cute. Theresa, her husband, case, her daughter, Maya, Maya's partner, her son, Jake, his wife, Jessie, Lisa and Bev, my dear, dear friends. And they just had a little engagement party that we had Mediterranean food, and they had fucking those white bells that fold out those two white paper bells that are so horrible,

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you know, she said yes. She they said they found a really hard time finding any kind of queer stuff that was like wife and wife, or things whatever, she said yes in this banner. And they had balloons with hearts inside of them, and there was napkins that had little champagne glasses clinking together. And everybody cried. Came in the door, and everyone said a few words about us. Was it a surprise? No, I knew we were having an engagement party. We didn't know what that means. And both of us said, Is there strippers at an engagement?

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Party and thorns is like, No, that is a whole different thing. I have questions about that, actually, too, but I want to hear, okay, but anyway, we just, we just sat, we had a really nice meal. And Thoris walked through the her proposal, because everyone wanted to know what she did, and and then we asked everybody else what they did. And it was really cute. I mean, it was very pedestrian. I guess we should get married. Hey. Like, the stories were so varied. It was adorable. There was lots of tears. And I think my friends were in such disbelief of me ever meeting anybody. And beautiful, yeah, so it's it was pretty cool for us, and tortoise was very funny. We're still kind of nervous. She's still nervous. My friends are nervous around her and but anyways, it is really good. It was a really fun who's the maid of honor? Is there one? I'm not doing any of that. Okay? I'm not doing any maid of honor. Or my concern about that is really to know if Caitlin and I should be planning anything for a Bachelorette, or if someone else is taking the initiative. Well, Lisa said she was going to do something. I don't even know what that entails. I think Thornes is pals are definitely doing something for her in ice, okay? And we just can't have nothing. It's so difficult though, in this day and age, any, any of us, realize that we, our friends, are all over the goddamn world? Yeah, yeah. It's not just back in the old days when you rode your bike three doors down and all your friends are on the same block. You grow up into an adult and you have friends. I have friends everywhere, all over this globe. Yeah. So the idea of having something,

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and I really don't want one.

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I don't want a bachelorette anything

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thrift plan?

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Well,

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you know what, we're the three of us are going to do that. I make this vow when I have a few days in Toronto, I will stay an extra couple days. We will do an Uber, but we are definitely going to go do the Thrift thing before I get married. So I'm going to get married in the summer. I don't know what day yet, and I, I'm making this promise in front of all of our listeners. The three of us are fucking thrifting, okay for each other. We'll draw the names out of a hat. We'll literally see who gets what I feel like, I mean, they're turning into a live podcast show. I'm just saying. Maybe the background is happening. We'll watch sponsor,

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sponsored by so let's I make that promise. Go do that, and we will go for dinner somewhere. First of all, I love I will plan something in Toronto, and I will, I will invite more people. If I'm allowed, you are allowed. Okay, great, yeah, you just give us the list. You let me know, no, but you let you know what I want, nothing to do with it. Okay, great. You know who I know there. I already know. We know the list already. There's not one person that I know in Toronto that you guys don't know. You know all my good ideas. Okay, Okay, done. All right. Okay, perfect, okay, putting a pin in that. I'm so excited I could explode. What do we got for the scroll today? Caitlin, green,

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it's the Olympics. The Olympics are the number one thing that I'm seeing going around social media. So I should say Canada currently sits at 12 medals as of our point of recording, so that there hopefully will be a lot more. We've got three golds, we've got four silvers, we've got five bronze and then, you know, the big the big stories, I think, so far, have been really waiting for the Olympic gold medal hockey game. That's what Canadians are waiting for. We hope that we make it all the way to the finals. We hope that we play the US. I'm wondering if there's going to be some sort of a fight that happens within 30 seconds of them taking the ice, if that is the case and comes to pass because of what happened at the Four Nations last time. So we'll see also. The big story that I'm seeing around the Olympics, that's, you know, making headlines, is the condoms. The condoms. What about the condoms? I'm not aware. It's pretty funny. The Milan Olympic Committee released a statement saying that they can confirm that the condom supplies in the Olympic villages were temporarily depleted due to higher than anticipated demand. So they promised that they would be replenishing them throughout the games, and they can confirm now that 10,000 have been used, and there are 2800 athletes. So they said that down three, that's a that's either a three intercourse night. Oh, I think it's so kind of cool that they're using these condoms. I would love to have an Olympic condom just as a souvenir. Oh, you know what, maybe? Well, I don't know if they're branded, but if they are branded, then I actually think that the people would probably be keeping at least one as a souvenir, because that is kind of good merch. So let's not rule that out. But otherwise, that's a lot of people doing the old trip. There was some hoarding. I like, what? What was the old saying back in the day? You know, boxers would, they would keep their sperm and keep their virility intact and not have any sexual interaction.

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Connections with anybody a couple of days before the fight, because you got to keep up your strength. So I'm thinking, as an athlete, maybe someone can write us and send us a voice note and tell us, as an athlete, if you play hockey or something, is there is that an urban myth to not be shooting your shot the night before a game? I think it depends on the character. Just bringing back heated rivalry here. You know, sometimes someone wants to go right before a game, and sometimes someone does not and is focused. So okay, all right, we can't say what's happening, whether they're using them before or after their

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their various competitions, but they are getting used. They have been replenished. So don't worry, it's still safe sex abound in the Olympic Village. Now, another thing that started training was that the Canadian Olympic men's hockey team has ditched the Olympic Village dorms for the four seasons in town, and they were getting a lot

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they were getting a lot of heat for this from some people who thought, This isn't really in the spirit of the Olympics. And every single professional hockey player said, We don't care. Like we're here for a brief window. We are risking injury. You know, the NHL has historically been kind of on the fence about whether or not they want their athletes participating in this. So I say good for them. As someone who loves a luxury hotel and could not possibly sleep in a bunk bed, I think that this is a great idea. But I, like the Canadians, were like, nah, this is not chic for us. And then the other thing that I noticed was, you know, you think about some of these athletes, and I constantly wonder, what do they do in the off season? You know, if you're a winter athlete, or if you're specific to like, you know, winter or summer, you're only going to get to compete every four years at this level, right? So there's a German bobsledder named Lisa buckwitz, and she is crediting her only fans account for financing all of her Olympic dreams. What? Yes, yes, the hell. And some people have noticed, what does she show them? Like, what is it? Wow. Is it lascivious? Is it a bit? Yeah, it is a bit skinless. So the here's the thing. So she won the women's bobsled in 2018 and so she gets a lot of attention as a result of that. And she's attractive, and so she poses on the cover of Germany's version of Playboy magazine. And so she this is like, this is a woman in STEM, dare I say, because she knew from doing that that she had lots of interest, and she positioned herself really well to then create an online following. So she charges $200 a year for a subscription to her only fans page access for three months is $60 your Patreon subscription is a deal on, yes, exactly. Thank you, and I will show you my feet.

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I wonder if you're on Celebrity feet. Calm. Anyways, that's a question for another time. But yeah, so she does this. And this is something that happens for a lot of athletes. They they'll use this moment, this attention to, then turn to having to, you know, do this type of thing. And who knows what they show, right? Who knows how X rated it is. But I just will say, Don't sleep on only fans creators, because a lot of them make a fortune and don't actually have to show anything that's that scandalous. Some of their photos are very artistic. You know, a well placed sheer drape is in the mix. So, I mean, I don't know, I kind of, I can't be I can't fault her for this. I really can't. And then Lindsay Vaughn, I'm sure this is kind of like old news at this point, a bit. But a lot of people were very, very upset to see what happened with her, that she underwent her fourth surgery following her broken left leg.

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You're pinging my string right now. You're paying in my string, I know, and she was 41 and she's one of the oldest competitors that we're going to be at that was at the Winter Games, and so many people wanted to see her have this amazing comeback story. But it is worth noting that she was seriously injured before she went into her run. So and she's she's doctors are saying some people have to have amputations following a leg break and injuries of this magnitude. So she's the latest on her is that she's had this fourth surgery, and everyone's really hoping for her to make a full recovery. And man, if this isn't one of the bravest, coolest female athletes of all time, I'm so sorry she had that happen, but I still am kind of endlessly impressed that she tried even considering like the state she was in. And then lastly, I thought this was an interesting story. Ed Sheeran has not owned a phone for years. If you want to reach out to him, you have to email him. It kind of reminds me of Dolly Parton, how she said that people have to fax her. But Ed Sheeran is notably a lot younger. So he was explaining in the middle of a concert that he recently had that during this whole battle in 2015 when he was fighting with the estate of Marvin Gaye, because they had a copyright suit against him for they said that he used, let's get it on in his single thinking out loud anyway. So during that time, the Court tells Ed he has to surrender his devices to uncover files and messages that were related to that song. So he joked, this was in Sydney, Australia, in front of his crowd. He said, I'm glad there was nothing weird on my phone. I thought, yeah, that's probably good. But he won the case and said, I haven't owned a phone since. Ever since they took my phone away from me, I haven't looked back, and it was a relief not to be inundated with news and stories and headlines and comments about me, and I just thought to myself, This feels like something that maybe only the super rich could do, but I just wonder how. I wonder what our lives would look like if we all went full at sharing mode.

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I.

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Have no interest in that.

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It makes me it makes me anxious, like I

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just don't think I could do it. I There's just too many things that I love, the convenience of. And I think traveling as much as I do, and I think I'm still traveling half the year now I'm going to safely say I travel half the year,

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going to Iceland. Might bump that up to like 200 plus 200 days a year again, but I really depend on it for flight information, changes in Gates, literally, you know, weather stuff, calling the movers, emailing Ed Sheeran, hoping that when he gets to his destination.

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Yeah, I guess so I for me, it just just my life, my modern life, my calendar of what I'm supposed to be doing. I couldn't manage it. I couldn't manage a paper journal and checking on that. How would you get a hold of me? Anyway, I hardly ever check email. So no, it's a hard no for me. Sarah, no, it's a hard No, but send us a voice note and tell us what would you be able to ditch your phone? Ed, Sheeran style, I don't know. Yeah, I feel like you can only do it if you're super rich and have an assistant. That's what I think. And I thought that sounds chic. Love that for you. Ed, but like it just would not practically work for me, because how would I call Uber it just I don't know how to do this. Oh God, my whole life is my phone. Yeah? Like if I couldn't talk to thordis all the time, or text her or No, I'm saying no. It depresses me. It's giving me anxiety. Let's go to voice notes.

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Okay, let's see what we've got today. Hi Jann Arden podcast. It's Stephanie calling from CO Burke, Ontario.

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Today is the anniversary of Karen Carpenter's death, and so I was listening to her, and I just thought of you, Jan, and I was thinking of all the songs that you'd sing really well,

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what songs of Karen's Would you ever think about covering I've tried to sing her during karaoke, and it did not go

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well. Her voice was like a magical voice wrapped in velvet that I don't think anyone could ever

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replicate. She was such a wonderful artist, and her life was cut so short. And I was really happy to hear that you also love the carpenters anyway. Love listening to you guys every week, and especially love listening to you while I'm at work at a nursing home

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anyway. Hope you have a great day. Oh, thank you so much. Thanks. Well, I've certainly got enough songs to keep the podcast going until we quit doing the podcast. There are hundreds and hundreds of terrible songs. Thank you. Oh yeah, and that reminds me, we've got to drop one, a little snippet on Patreon for we are another reason to be an only. Jan, so yeah, we there's, I gave Sarah four snippets of the songs that I spoke to with Sarah Polly. And yeah, we'll put a few of them on there. They're terrible. Jesus.

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Listen. I just Karen Carpenter, I did record Solitaire. So Stephanie, if you get a chance, it's on one of my records. I believe it's uncover me too. I tried my very best to cut Solitaire. So give that a listen. Hi. It's Kathy calling from Southwestern Ontario in the countryside. Love your podcast. I work a job all winter that requires me to calibrate in the agricultural industry, corn planter meters. And I watch 1000s of kernels of corn go around every winter getting ready for springtime. And you guys entertain me so well. Love it. I want to know what a corn counter is. A corn counter meter, calibrator. Calibrator, what in shits name is that, I don't know. How can you leave us hanging like that? Ma'am, I wonder if it's like counting how many kernels go into each can, or something like, if it's like, Sarah, no spins around and so I think if I had to guess, because of Will's little, tiny Fisher Price farm, he does have, like, a silo feature where corn spins up and around. So maybe it's like that. That's all I got. Ladies and gentlemen, we need your help. We need more. Need we need more. You want to stick around because when we come back, we're going to be talking to Jennifer Whalen and Meredith McNeil, who star and create the amazing CBC show, small, achievable goals. The episode is fantastic. It's a great conversation. You're not going to

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want to

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miss it. I'm terrified. Don't be terrified. Meredith, don't be I'm not. I'm not. I'm happy. No no. And welcome to the new, loving and very.

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Excellent Jen Arden podcast, I'm here with my regular people, Sarah Burke and Caitlin green. I did take a moment to remember Caitlin's name, just because we are talking about a show that does deal with menopause. Listen, I have two incredible women in front of me, Meredith McNeil and Jennifer Whalen, who likes to be called Jen by your friends. Or can I do that as well? You can call me Jen. Most people call me Jen. I professionally go by Jennifer, because my mom's like, I gave you a name. Could you please use use it? Yeah, I've got that who you likely know from Baroness von sketch. But today they are here to talk about not only starring in but frickin creating, like show, running the fantastic hit CBC series small, achievable goals, and it's now in its second season. It's very fitting that on the show they play podcast hosts try to keep it together while navigating friendship, work and menopause, so they're extremely well prepared to be here with us today. We are so thrilled to have these very talented and creative women on the show. Thank you both for being here. Hi, guys. Hi, thanks. Thank you. How are you both doing? Like, what a trajectory this last 1517, 1820, years has been for you both, and I'm sure it is nothing but joy filled and a little bit of anxiety to be working on a new show and just to be together and doing this together, you guys have been friends for a long time. Yeah, it's, I mean, listen, I'm not gonna lie. It's great. The only thing that's not great about it, about making a show about menopause, is being in menopause while you're trying to do it. That adds a degree of difficulty that, you know, I don't know that either one of us anticipated. The upside of that, though, if someone goes I don't believe that's real. I'm like, you fucking right. Like, the upside of being in menopause and reminded about menopause is that you know your truth. No one can gaslight into you believing something different. It seems like menopause is really getting a light shone on it from a medical community that did not exist for our moms, that the symptoms are actually being taken seriously, that it's not about hysteria, and it's a lot about women complaining. And, you know, everyone rolling their eyeballs. I mean, they rolled their eyeballs at us. The patriarchy did anyway, just about period cramps and just feeling like shit for a week out of every month. And and now there's so many companies that give women some leeway to, like, literally, take menstrual days off. I mean, things are changing, but you guys are walking in obviously, this show is in real time. It's now going into 2026, and it really is about work, friendships, navigating, walking into a room, not knowing why you're there. Has it been fun writing to symptoms that you're actually feeling and going, this is an actual thing, because so many women can relate to this. Yeah, I have to say I I'm not exactly my character, but what my character and I both do suffer from is one stinky armpit, which I

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really wanted to put out there, because I was like, why is my body doing this horrible thing to me? And when we started making the show, I was thinking, Oh, my God, am I alone? Like, is this gonna Is this, like, is this just me and my body is being weird? And then I was in a waiting room, actually, to go see a menopause doctor, and this woman sat down next to me, and she started talking about how she had one stinky armpit both of us. It's the left. I don't know why the right is good, but it's always the left armpit. And then she was telling me, because I had tried, like, at this point, I was I had tried everything to get rid of it, and I actually had imported

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old people soap from Japan. It's like, it's soap that gets rid of old people's smell, crazy expensive, and it didn't work.

Unknown Speaker  23:39  
Yeah, anyway. So this woman said beef tallow, which I didn't try, but yeah, I've moved past it. Now, if you, if you, if I see you in public and I hug you, you'll be safe. The Stinky I said, that's the building. I had one I had one pit stink. I kind of miss it. I feel like now I'm past the point like, I kind of felt like, I don't know there was a security in my one stinky pit. And then going back to what you're saying, Jan, besides stinky pits of like, I still find it shocking. I'm still so new at being in a world where people are talking about perimenopause and menopause. Because I don't know about you, or all of you wonderful people joining us today, but I really went through most of my life not ever hearing about perimenopause at all, and then menopause, and then all of a sudden, hit this wave where it feels like so many people feel like they are able to talk about it, and then being fortunate that my mom is still with us, and a lot of older women in my life, and the fact that they were denied it so harshly, the opportunity to talk about it and to be a part of that generation where we can still it's like, you know, pre cell phone, cell phone, the same thing like being able to talk to women that didn't feel like they had the experience, and being have the opportunity to ask why they felt like they couldn't, has been like, really, it can bring.

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To tears. It's emotional. I find it really emotional. And I find that we have so much permission to talk about it, and even the time and Jen, when please speak to this, even the time of Jen and I creating the show, so much has changed. And I'm almost asking you, Jen and everybody here, and I don't quite know the shift, other than Gen X was able the first generation, we stand on the shoulders of other women to find our voices and things like, to be able to talk about it. But I do. I find it highly emotional. I look at my mom and the fact that they really felt like they weren't allowed or and really, when I say not allowed, I think the shame that comes with that, still exploring that, that's the word. There is so much shame.

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Caitlin and Sarah are younger than me the 20 years, and some younger than me, not going to say how many years. So I'm the matriarch of our podcast, and so it's interesting to hear their concerns about kind of where they're headed. I'm over the mountain now, like my symptoms have pretty much subsided. And I'm on every hormone that Jesus created or whoever did. So I'm on progesterone, pregnenolone, estrogen. I take something called DHEA. I put testosterone on my labia. Yes, I do, ladies and gentlemen, no. Good for you. Good for you. And there's something else that I'm on as well. I can't really think of it at the moment, but I'm on everything. So my life has been changed by science. Are you guys dealing with any of the HRT kind of stuff in the show? Is it something that you guys do in real life? It has changed my life? Yeah, yeah. It's life changing. I my character does deal with going on HRT in season two. And, yeah, it is, it is.

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It's so frustrating that it that we're having shortages right now, that it is not widely available, that we don't have, like, a better

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way of informing women, people with uteruses who are want to take these hormones, that they can because it was so life changing, like I felt I was like, starting to feel unhinged, like I was like, I don't feel like myself, I don't recognize myself. I

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just, I don't know who this person is. And I felt so out of control. And then I was very fortunate that when I started taking HRT like, almost immediately I was like, Oh my God. I slept, I slept, I feel like myself again. And then I've gone, you know, I've been on HRT for, I don't know, three years now, and now I've started to take testosterone and vaginal estrogen. And that's a game changer, too, that we're not talking about, you know, like it's better living through it is, but it's just, it's so frustrating that you have to argue for it. And also, let's talk about testosterone for a second and HRT gel. Like, could we not figure out how to make the dosage easier? Like, the

Unknown Speaker  27:49  
testosterone I take comes in a pump that's a male dose. So you have to, like, half it and figure out what the thing is. And then you can only do it two times a week. And there's all that. Like, surely, in this world where everything is over packaged. Somebody can come up with fucking package that gives you the right lady amount, dose, so that you're not always like, what are we doing? You know, no, I don't even know. I'm there with HRT like, I just started like, I couldn't find a doctor. One of the things that is similar to my character is I had I couldn't find a doctor for years, my daughter and I and then when I did, it was so funny. And then finally, I was like, still bleeding a little bit, and what doctors give you HRT? And they were like, what doctors don't? And I was like, I'll never throw down. I mean, what is I mean, you only know Jim like to be Canadian in the public eye. I don't even know what that means. I've only ever used to try to get my daughter in a pottery class once, but this time, I was so goddamn like, you should be in jail.

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That's my next stop, for sure. That's probably my next stop. Is jail. I could probably but when I finally used it, I was like, I'm doing a show about it, please. For the love of God, let me try it. Can I just try? Because I did whatever Waylon did. Waylon was a bit ahead of me in the game. That's how I found what perimenopause was, because my mate, Jen Whalen, was like, I think you're this is happening to you. And I was like, oh shit. So we put that in the show. But speaking of the pump of testosterone, I I'm on a pump of HRT. And they were like, and it's me in a day. So when they were like, Do you know how to do a half dose of a pump? I lied. No one should give me a pump, a thing with anything. You got to be a barista to do

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this. Can I get a half pump? Yeah, they were like, Can you do a half pump? I just said 100%

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I can do anything you asked me to, just so that I could run out with HRT. But I know what you guys but like I was obviously I was dosing myself wrong on it. Has that happened to you? So I went crazy on my HRT.

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I don't know if i od on HRT or I under deed on HRT. Please write in.

Unknown Speaker  29:49  
How do you know? But what are symptoms of overdosing on hormones like I just I want to know all the men I broke up with, call the men I broke up with, okay? Like I fell.

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Like I really felt mentally unwell, like I felt really okay. But I don't know if that's the thing. See, this is the other thing that's really wild that I find hard. I'm so scared now, like part of me wants to come off all of it, stay on all of it you're on. If you're putting testosterone on your downstairs lip, Jan, I love you. That's what the fuck I'm doing, whatever you're doing I'm doing but that, to me, is basically how I get through the medical world of HRT. Jen Wayland, smart, are you doing that? Jen, I'm doing it. Jen, Arden, You're a goddamn genius. That's going to be all over my lips like that's as far as I know what to do with. HRT, well, my grandmother, I would ask her, about, you know, being anemic when, when she was going through the change of life. You know, he called it the change of life. God forbid, you should give it some kind of medically or hysterical name. Well, we never, we didn't get we didn't get anemic, because we cooked everything in an iron frying pan,

Unknown Speaker  30:57  
and the flakes came off of the frying pan, and you'd eat everything in a frank, my God, Jan, you boiled water in a bloody iron pot. And I'm sure we had more iron than we needed, so I don't know we we didn't have that. My mom said, Well, I got a hysterectomy when I was 37 and the next day I was out mowing the lawn. My mom had Alzheimer's. Her memories are a little distorted, but I like the idea that she thought that she got her uterus taken out, and the next day was mowing the lawn. You know what, though Joe, because she probably did, maybe she did that generation of woman and like, as you were saying that about your grandma, in my mind is like, do I have an iron pan for tonight's dinner?

Unknown Speaker  31:39  
Like a cast iron frying pan, anyway she talked about. But it's so great that you guys can adjust that your that your characters, you know, Chris fine and Julie Muldoon, you guys can take these real life things, because I think it helps, I know in songwriting, to have a little morsel of something real going into a song helps me to somehow get through to the end. And so with the show, there's so many I'm not quite caught up going to season two, and I know we're we're just starting, but i Everything feels real to me. Everything feels like, Oh, this is these women know exactly what this is. And you must get a lot of comments about that. And then I'm going to go to Caitlin, because I know she's got a million got a million questions. Well, I feel like some is and some isn't. Let me turn on the light here. Do I look i No,

Unknown Speaker  32:30  
I don't know. Like Jen and I have some experiences, I would say that to take on, but I wouldn't say for Chris, not really. A lot of what we'll do is like, what are our neighbors going through? Like, the sociopolitical aspect, what are our friends going through? So everything that Chris is going through, I wouldn't say I'm going through Waylon, what about you?

Unknown Speaker  32:51  
Yeah, I mean, I think Jan, I'm sort of like, I'm with you. I like to use a kernel of something that I know, and then it gets it gets bigger from that. But I will say that mayor and I talked a lot about wanting to make sure that women felt seen, and wanting to make sure that it was accurate and true, and that we didn't do that kind of thing where we're like, oh, menopause. And then we just talked about for a second, then it disappeared that it was actually representative the challenges. We tried to do our best to make it representative of the challenges and the things that happen at this time of life, when you're juggling so much big stuff in terms of, you know, your mid career, your you got family, you might be dealing with aging parents, and then you have this bullshit thing that happens to your body that makes you have to renegotiate everything that's just like the last thing you need at this time of life. Yeah, can I Caitlin, back, Jan, to one thing that you said, I just wrote your mom just brought something up for me, like it's saying that she had hysterectomy and then mowed along. Whether that's true or not, just that, the detail around that is the fact that women didn't feel like they could own even how bad a hysterectomy was that the patriarchy is sending them the message that they have to say everything is okay, like, you get a stamp of pride, yeah, of by going and it still exists today. Like, you know what I mean? Like, people, women will say, oh, like, natural childbirth over cesarean section, right? C sections that can happen or not child, you know, birth. So I just was like a shout out to your mom and all those women that felt like they weren't allowed to take a second to say, I deserve to be in bed or that was shitty. That this, that the patriarchy was kind of demanding that they feel pride from motoring on. And I'll always say this whenever Jen, I have a Q, and I always say this because my daughter is always in the audience. Whenever someone talks about something like that, I always say, who does it serve? Who does it serve to think that way? Definitely not your mom. Okay, sorry, I cut you off. You're gonna ask Caitlin something sore. Source, no. Caitlin, go, no. I'm just curious how you guys settled on these two characters being podcasters as podcasters ourselves. I'm like, what led you there? And it's really nice to continue into the space of female podcasting, because I don't think we need any more Joe rogans in the world, even Jason.

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
And even in jest, I think let's tamper that down a bit. Yeah, well, thank you. Well, we talked about, we wanted it to be set in a workplace, because we wanted to talk about, you know, like, I think so many women, you know, that you hide your period, you hide your pregnancy. Like, in the workplace, it's like, just be a worker, like, don't have a human physical body. So we wanted to have that tension in it. And then we landed on podcasting because we thought that it would be a good way to bring in other points of view and to bring in other people. Now, that's the, you know, that's what was our initial idea. And we thought, you know, maybe we would seem podcasting more than we actually do in the series as it exists. But the whole idea was just to,

Unknown Speaker  35:40  
you know, just as two white ladies to have other points of view and other experiences and people who are having different symptoms and different things, because obviously, you know, everybody's experience is so unique and individual with it.

Unknown Speaker  35:52  
Do you guys listen to a lot of podcasts and is your favorite one?

Unknown Speaker  35:57  
Ours? Yes and yes,

Unknown Speaker  35:59  
absolutely. There are some covid Did something in the podcast space that was unbelievable. There's something like 80 or 90,000 podcasts that are available, that are available for streaming. That number didn't seem right to me. Sarah Burke, I'll go over to you, because this is Sarah's network. But you know, there's these little, tiny, micro rivers that go off. Some people have, like, three people listening to them, but they still post on different formats. But there's nothing you cannot find on the podcasting space. I just, I wanted to ask you how hard it is in today's climate. There's so much going on in the world. It's, it's kind of a shitty time for women.

Unknown Speaker  36:45  
When I that comes out of my mouth, I think it has been a shitty time for women for maybe three or 4000 years. But who's counting? I might be off by 150

Unknown Speaker  36:54  
years, but we seem to be entering yet again, like from the me too, stuff, the things that have happened, you know, feminism in the 70s, and women's liberation. Now we're going into something so weird, and I'm wondering if you guys have time, or if the entire show is obviously written,

Unknown Speaker  37:12  
of how you see yourselves

Unknown Speaker  37:17  
helping in that space for women, helping in women being victims of, you know, heinous sexual assaults, and the stuff that, the stuff that's going on now, it's almost like people watching television kind of wait to be informed by the people that they love. Like, what are Jann and Meredith doing? Like, do you have any thoughts on that at all? Like, maybe, maybe it doesn't end up in your show. But how are you guys dealing with that in your real in real time? Well, season two is film, so we can't, unfortunately, we can't address it right now, but I'm sure that we will talk about it in season three. Because, yeah, it's huge and it's horrible.

Unknown Speaker  37:53  
I think that one of the good things about this time of life that I want to, you know, lean into as the show goes on is just that there is a freeing of giving no fucks, and there is a thing of being

Unknown Speaker  38:07  
when you're younger. You know, you become free from male gaze. You become free from a lot of things, and it allows you to be who you are again, in a way, without, you know, the hormones clouding your, your your mind and trying, trying to, like, make you reproduce. So I'm I think it's really difficult. It's a very difficult time, but I'm ultimately hopeful, because I feel like all of this gross stuff is stuff that we kind of knew, like we kind of knew on a level, that the world was this disgusting, and now it's being brought to light. And my hope is that, like, what started with me to this is the next step,

Unknown Speaker  38:42  
and it's worldwide, and so we all have to deal with it, because it's also too like, women live under horrific conditions worldwide, you know, like, there's child marriages, there's just awful things going and I would, I would love to see as women band together and just go enough. We're 50% of the population, enough. And I don't know what you guys all feel, but I feel when it gets really bad, it's because it's going real good, meaning this, like

Unknown Speaker  39:07  
the suppression will never end. And so when it comes, when you feel it bad and hard, that means the voices are strong. They're trying to suppress something good that's happening. I learned a lot from Baroness, and having kind of like

Unknown Speaker  39:19  
a Baroness gave us an opportunity to I would speak for myself, but

Unknown Speaker  39:25  
what does my voice sound like in a public space, no matter how minimal you know? And I think that it was an extraordinary opportunity to learn just what you're asking, kind of like, what do you do when you have no matter how small of a space? And I learned two things, one, to allow yourself the permission to have the compassion that you can share and change the way that feels safe to you. I think sometimes people feel forced to do and say things that they're not ready to do. And the second thing I learned was growing up where I did what was the most harmful thing that I saw, and it's what we talked about earlier that I felt like I could.

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
Do something about with the voice and the I suppose to say minimal skill set. And I shouldn't do that. Shouldn't, shouldn't myself. That's not helping anyone. Is Shame, shame in men, shame in women, the shame and the fear of it. And I think the thing that Baroness taught me is, like, whenever we and truth is so huge and it's so palpable. I'm sure, as a songwriter, you see that all the time and in this podcast. And I think that I'm Baroness in a small form. I was always playing with that idea of like, what does it look like when any of these three incredible women, four incredible myself included, would take away, chip away at shame and the change it meant, and told the truth the way that we saw it, and the response was resounding. It became the show. Became like a conversation, I think, continuing to take that into creative spaces for me, and then the work has been the thing that I feel like my skills, I'm honing my skill set. If I can do anything, it's to keep up the conversation around shame and doing my little bit to sort of shake it off. Because within that, within that shake off, lies your power. If you shake that bit off, you're gonna figure out what people didn't want you to say for the longest time, no matter how small that you think it is, it's pretty powerful to someone else when you remove that. So I would say that, yeah, I love Meredith. You saying you figure out what people didn't want you to say? Yeah. I mean, when you think about that, it's huge. You

Unknown Speaker  41:20  
Paul,

Unknown Speaker  41:25  
Sarah questions, just quickly, like, you know, Canadian television is having such a moment right now, and I know how much we've had so many guests on this show that tell us about the challenges involved in even getting a show greenlit. So how does it feel to sort of like be in this, like, uplifting moment in Canadian television. I'm so thrilled that we get to do this. I mean, we we work really, really hard to make this show. It's like 17 full time jobs, but I'm proud to be making television in Canada, and I'm very happy to be part of this wave. And I think we should see more of this. Like, I do feel like a national pride of, like, yes, we can make great television. We can, you know, we need to support our Canadian artists and and consume it. But it's, you know, it's exciting because I think we also get to do things very differently. Like, I don't think that this show the way that it is, the way that we talk about real stuff would ever get made in the States. Like, it just never would happen. And I got a shout out CBC, because I think that they are like, okay, Canadian artists, talking about Canadian people, about Canadian things,

Unknown Speaker  42:27  
is huge and precious. And I just think, you know, yeah, the States wouldn't do it. I think Britain would do it. There's some places that would but I just feel very fortunate to be in a country that took that chance on us. Because, you know, it's, it's not when you TV is so much about, like, who's the audience and, like, money and advertising, and so it's not necessarily a thing that, yes, women will buy all these products that are associated with menopause. But it's not actually like a slam dunk, oh, you've got the 18 to 35 year old, you know, Democrat everybody wants. And that wasn't even like, a question, it was like, you know, we took this to CBC, and we talked to, like, a lot of women there who were like, yes, I want to see this. I want to see this. This reflected and that was fantastic, awesome. Still gotta fight for it, though, I won't lie. I still gotta fight for like, I gotta be honest with you, like, we get the show on, but for the material that you get on, because we are still, you know, everyone's talking about menopause, but some of the things that Jen and I were doing in the first season into the sex, sex season, I wish second season actually there was some sex. In the second season, we still had to have big conversations around like, you know what? I mean, it's not like certain things that you see on the show, wasn't like, and check that's easy to get in. It's still like big conversations. And I found that, yeah, like, super grateful to be in to have this show, and be able to do it, and still learning all the time, and then hearing yourself stand up for things that you think should be on television, then terrified. It's like, oh, do I really want period bud from the crack of my ass, down the crotch? You know what I mean is that something I want, you know, it's, it's just a it's interesting. But Jen's right, the fact that we have a broadcaster, Canadian broadcaster, that is willing to have those conversations and allow go through it's pretty special. They've been very known for that. It's crazy to me. And I'm sure you guys think about this a lot too, when you think about Canadian television, oh my god. For 50 years, Canada has produced such funny, funny characters and funny television. And of course, with the passing of Catherine O'Hara, I'd be remiss not to bring this up with you guys, because for any of us that you know kind of rinner and entertainment that was such a and of course, with the passing of Catherine O'Hara, I'd be remiss not to bring this up with you guys, because for any of us that you know, kind of renter and entertainment that was such a huge loss. So maybe you guys just can take a minute each or to speak to, you know, Catherine, and maybe if you ever met her or or how that kind of affected you, I was shocked. I mean, I don't think anyone really realized she was, she was as ill as she was. No, it was just like, I feel like, you know, January.

Unknown Speaker  45:00  
Say 2026 was a shit storm, and it was just like, when I heard that she died, I was like, Can we not have anything nice? It was so shocking. And I just felt cosmically ripped off, because I really wanted to see she's doing such interesting work. Like, what does she do at 81 What does she do at 91 and she literally is the reason I got into comedy. I saw her do a sketch on SCTV called Milk of amnesia. And for whatever reason, yes, you remember it. Remember it, right? Something in me just it. I didn't know that I wanted to be a comedian then, but something just clicked. And I was like, that's how you do that. That's what I want to do. And it was the first time I had seen somebody on TV, a woman on TV, doing comedy that I felt like was in line with comedy that I would like to do. So it really was, was eye opening. And she had, you know, she had basically the dream career. She did, like amazing indie movies. She did a blockbuster. She got to do all of those, you know, waiting for government, all those Christopher Guest improv movies. Like, everything she did was so intentional and interesting, and she made interesting choices, and she also remained, like a really nice, cool person, that in interviews, you're like, I think I'd like to know her. And you know, that's it's hard to have that big a career and maintain your being a regular person Ness. Yeah, I was asked to speak about her, and I couldn't, and and then I had the opportunity to meet her and work with her a tiny bit. And you

Unknown Speaker  46:22  
don't, I mean, I just was very, and still am very, it's hard to put into words. I think when someone is inspiring as she is, I think was probably one of the highlights of my whole career, is got asked to present with her the Canadian Screen Awards. And kind of like Jen said, like she lived up to everything, her skill set, her talent, her kindness. And I was always, you know, as someone who likes to push the boundaries a bit on television as much as I can, or not even feel like I am, just tell certain stories I want to tell, as we should say, like to be to see her do. It was a class act. So I come at it like it was, like, oh, like, so defensive before the conversation begins. And like Jen said she was so nice, like, we went to present the award, and they'd written the script for us, and then she sat me down, and she was like, Mayor, we'll just do our own script. And I was like, yeah, yeah. So we Burke out our own thing that we were gonna do. And

Unknown Speaker  47:13  
I kept thinking. I was like, It's fucking Catherine O'Hara man, this is amazing. And so that we worked out our own thing that we were gonna do. We were having a good time. And then just and then,

Unknown Speaker  47:23  
then it comes to show night we're gonna go present the award, and as we're walking out, she looks like, ah, should we just do something else? Just as we about to hit the mic, and I'm like, 100%

Unknown Speaker  47:32  
and I was like, yes, like, and I learned, like, it was such a lesson in every thing that I love to do, you know what I mean, choosing to do work that you want to do, choosing the people that you want to do with understanding how to be polite with the script. And then in the end, she got to do exactly what she wanted, the way that she wanted to do. And brought the house down like a complete class act. Jan. Did you ever meet her

Unknown Speaker  47:57  
very briefly, a couple of times at the SARS concert, way back when, when the stones played, I sang the old Canada at the beginning of the show. So I always tell people that I was the opening act for the Rolling Stones. Yes, she was on my IMDB. But anyways, her and her sister, Mary Margaret, were backstage, and I just introduced myself and said, Hi. She goes oh hi. And and then the three of us sang Oh Canada together. And then I don't know why they just wanted to sing all Canada together. So we sat there, the three of us, kind of holding arms, singing, O Canada, which was so quintessentially kind of maple syrupy. And then maybe five, six years ago,

Unknown Speaker  48:34  
the CSA awards, she was off talking to somebody else. I just was in the vicinity. She turned she looked at me. She goes, Hey, can you hold my drink? Because I just am getting my picture taken. I'm like, of course, yes. Well, she never came back for it. I just stood there for a long time. But just on a personal note for you guys, I want you to know that you you have been Catherine O'Hara ish for so many people and me in particular, and just on a personal note before we let you go, I was kind of friends with Jeremy, the director of Baroness, yes, and I somehow was managed to finagle a half day on a set with you guys. You were recording a very funny skit. I think it was the whole cast of you women. And it was one of those days that I will never, ever forget, as long as I live you guys in your white robes, and how kind you were to me, and sitting down and like, I think we were in craft services and having a little bite to eat, and, and, and I then I got to do something again a few years ago with you guys. I think it was the CSAs, kind of a nutty little and I it was that moment too. I mean, Meredith, you talk about, you know, being with Catherine O'Hara, but when I think about being, you know, with Meredith McNeil and Jennifer Whalen, I mean, I just went home that night going, What

Unknown Speaker  49:51  
the was that like just being with you guys and kibbutzing and having fun, and I just felt.

Unknown Speaker  50:00  
Like,

Unknown Speaker  50:01  
you know, all the hard work that I'd put in to have the opportunity to do things like that with women that you guys are so inspiring and so fucking funny to me. It just, I'll never forget that day and how nice you were. Well, we were blown away that you wanted to come. We heard you were coming. We're like, wants to come to our dumb little show. Like, we were like, so starstruck, I'm glad that we were cool because we were like, oh my god, oh my God. What's it come to our dumb little show? Like we were like, so starstruck, I'm glad that we were cool because we're like, oh my god, oh my god, oh god. Do you guys know I have a photo. I'll send it to you, Jan, I have a photo of all of us in our white robes, exactly what you're talking about. Oh my god, yeah, I have it. I'm gonna send it to you. I'm gonna send it to you, and you have it. It's all of the Baroness's and you on that day, and you're right. We're all in bathrobes these white bathrooms, and I and I, we must have been on, like, did they put the robes on us? Because they're like, don't get the costumes dirty. It wasn't for a sketch, was it? I don't remember what the sketch was, actually, but, well, I remember on Cherry beach, and remember we were Indian shore, Starbucks Denver. It was Starbucks Denver. Yes, Starbucks Denver. And you had a flashback, so you were ordering a coffee, and what if my name was Denver? And then we went into who Denver was, and you were on Cherry beach, and you were fucking with a half naked man, and you guys were like, it was very, very alluring and sensual, and everyone was very scantily clad. And I sat in a director's chair next to Jeremy, and I had a headset on. I was in heaven, heaven. That was the first time I saw you. I mean, besides on the old television, but I remember being in that sketch massive lips, so, you're right, I remember I was in this like, wine velvet dress, and my hair was, like, back combed, and then I raised over at, like, nuts, so much fun. Like, so nice. And I remember you were sitting there with Jeremy behind the camera. I remember that how, like, and I immediately was like, because, you know, we were nervous. I was like, this is going to be the best day. I remember thinking, what a generous person, yeah, oh yeah, it was so fun. It just is, but just so, you know, that's, that's who you are to me, like when baritis in particular, but all the stuff you've done on this hour has 22 minutes, which is such an iconic place for Canadian comedy to launch. And so many things have come out of that, but to be part of that royalty that you guys have created for yourselves, and to continuing to work, and I think, for women everywhere, not just in Canada, but people that have enjoyed both of your humor and writing over the years, is that you're never at an age where you're not learning and not getting better at what you do, like you never get to a point where you're topped out, where, oh God, we're too old for this. I feel like, as we get older, look the fuck out if you're not beside me, Get out of my way. And that's what you show people all the time, regardless of the show is about menopause or women getting older, the empowerment of, I might be down for 10 minutes in this fucking bathroom right now trying to figure out how to get rid of a giant red saddle on my white pants. And when I come out of here, look out and and that's what this show, I think, has done for me. Watching it is like it's uncomfortable, but my God, when you start living with the absence of doubt, which the girls and I talk about a lot, it is something else. Getting older, it is something else. Yeah, it's pretty special. It's pretty sexy, you know? And I love the idea, yeah, like, I love this idea. And the so many men, of like, our voices are stronger, we're rising up, and you feel suppression more because, like, I'm 50, I have never felt sexier. Like I feel so like I've always had questions about my looks and concerns, and, like, the wind of doubt, and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm like, I am so I really like to swear on this. I've sweared so I was like, I am so fuckable. I am so like, I

Unknown Speaker  53:54  
can tell I'm single, but like, I have never felt more like in possession of how I look with, like, makeup, no makeup, like, this kind of freedom of whatever I want to do. And it does feel, there's something like about feeling sexy and sex and power and like it's all intertwined as a woman. And finally, of like me, growing up as Catholic like and even feeling all the shame. And I was like, Oh, this is why they didn't want us to be sexual beings because it's so linked empowering, our power, yeah, and it's not just about like, yeah. I like fucking. It's like, it feels like, and I don't know what it is, I feel like, new at it, but it feels bigger than that. Does anybody relate? Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  54:35  
I think stepping it's different. There's that crazy statistic that men peak their sexual peak is at 18 or 19 years old, and women are well into their 40s, 50s and 60s, when you kind of figure out how to work the equipment and what you want, and starting to ask for what you want, and things like that. But that's why your show is so important as well, and to be able to I'm going to let you speak to that too, Jen, just just what that means to be

Unknown Speaker  54:59  
creative.

Unknown Speaker  55:00  
Have been doing it better than you ever did. Yeah, I mean, I just think it's like, there's, there's no limits on it, and the limits that are put on it are so patriarchal, that are so like, well, you know, you're past a certain point. You know, once you hit 40 as a woman, you're not valuable, or once you hit menopause. And I think, you know, we are stepping into our power. I think you know, Baroness definitely was a was a show that came out of one of the things that came out of was just not seeing women on television the way that we knew them to be, the way that we knew how funny they are, how dark they are, how strong they are, how cool they are. They are not just people who walk into a scene and ask if anyone wants a sandwich, which is of what happens after a certain age. So to be able to write in our own voices and write about things that we care about in that show and in the show that we have now, it's like, it's such a huge gift. And both shows are really our love letters to women like this is really like, here you here we are. This is what we're actually like. You know, this is this is us and all of our messy, brave glory, because women do do that like they will have the worst thing happen to them, and then they will dust themselves off and and keep going throughout the day. And not only will they do that, but they will make sure that people have dinner that their friend who's having a hard time they've talked to, you know, like women are infinitely strong and powerful. And I think that that's what we want to talk about to the end of time. Of like, we just get more interesting. Like, as you get older, you just get better. You get to be a better version of yourself. And I would love to see that on TV. And nature is right. They should be afraid. They should be very fucking afraid, because middle aged women are like, we're absolutely badass cool, and we are not subscribing to the myth of, like, what Jen Whalen was saying. Of like, I don't know, I keep telling jen whalens, like, there's 50 gens here, but we're used to in the writing room, there's like, more than one Jen, but like, we're not subscribing to the fact of what we were told and kind of what you were bring going. Circling back to your amazing mom, Jen where and all our moms that decided they weren't able to stick up for themselves and their health. Like, we're not subscribing to that message anymore. We're kind of incredible, and we're starting to understand why the patriarchy wanted us to be quiet for so long. Yeah, we're going to leave it there. What a perfect place to jump off this conversation. Congratulations on small, achievable goals. We have been talking to Jennifer Whalen and Meredith McNeil, two of my comedic heroes, writers, producers, directors, these women are doing it all their daughters, mothers, partners, and I'm I'm proud to say that you're my friends. You goddamn right. I'm looking forward to whatever comes next for you guys. But thank you so much for doing the show today, Sarah and Caitlin. I really appreciate it, and you can watch it on CBC gem like, if you're missing episodes from last year. And further to that, if you want to go and watch Baroness von sketch and laugh your freaking ass off. Put some depends on. Get your popcorn, pop a bottle of Tia Maria and just sit down,

Unknown Speaker  57:55  
get the Tia Maria out and just, do you just, you know, and just enjoy yourselves. But thank you for being such strong, great women and and being out there fucking up sometimes and making that okay for people to do as well. It's really important. Thanks for being on the show. Thank you for being all of those things. Yeah, and anytime you want to put on a bathrobe and hang out, we're down Season Two of small, achievable goals just dropped, you can watch it on CBC gem and cheer these women on. Thank you for listening and totally do you.