Republic of Allan Hawco

Jann Arden  0:08  
Hello everybody, welcome to the Jan Arden podcast. I'm here with Caitlin Green, Sarah Burke, and from his beautiful - he says it's a shed, but it's like a glass, it's like a cathedral in Spain. Anyway, today we are joined by the multi-talented Alan Hocko, a name that resonates deeply in Canadian entertainment. Born on Bell Island, is that correct, Alan?

Allan Hawco  0:32  
That is correct.

Jann Arden  0:33  
Okay. Raised in the Goulds, is that correct, Alan? Newfoundland,

Allan Hawco  0:37  
also correct.

Jann Arden  0:37  
Alan is a powerhouse. This is not my words, this is this is the words of the industry. He is an actor, a writer, a very successful producer. He's obviously very well known for his iconic role as Jake Doyle in the hit CBC series Republic of Doyle, which is something that he also co-created, wrote, and executive produced No Small Feet. Alan has brought Newfoundland's charm and wit to audiences worldwide. His work spans acclaimed projects like Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan, St. Pierre, The Book of Negroes, which I wanted to talk to you about, and caught welcome to the show, Alan. We're so excited to have you here with us today. You have had a very successful run in the television and movie industry

Allan Hawco  1:23  
sounds like it's over now, and I'm good with that. That's so nervous. Oh, I just got all nervous. That's so Janet, and saying all that nice stuff about me. Well,

Jann Arden  1:34  
I had lots of help, trust me. I'm just like, wow, he did this, he did that. I didn't really know about some of the other film stuff you've worked on, really a diverse range of things from the book of Negroes, which I loved. So, how do you, how do you prepare yourself for going into these really different projects?

Allan Hawco  1:54  
Well, it depends on the project, right. So, how involved I am, or how, how much, how much I, how much input I have in, in terms of the beginning of it. So, like, the shows I'm writing, or whatever, and producing, obviously, I'm, you're so, it's all encompassing when you're writing a show, and, as you know, and starring in a show, and producing a show, it's your everything, and when you get to go do something that's not all those tasks. I think a lot of people think that I, I need to be in control of that kind of stuff if they don't know me. But the truth is, I, that's not my MO at all. I'd love going to work on other people's projects and being able to just focus on being the actor in the part, and it's one of my favorite things in the entire world, and I love to work, like I'm an actor. Some actors love to do some things, and some people, you know, or pick. I love working, like really the straightest way to get me into a movie or a show is to just ask me, and it's so much of that happens over my DMs, quite honestly. Like, it's the DM is

Jann Arden  2:58  
a thing, it's it's like it's like the new LinkedIn, Caitlin, over to you.

Caitlin Green  3:03  
I'm really curious about sort of like how these very specific regional pieces of content can almost feel more universal. It's something that I feel like I've noticed, so it's like, you know, Letterkenny, or the new show on CBC, St. Pierre, or Republic of Doyle. I feel like they resonate with audiences globally that you wouldn't expect, and I wonder if it's like that idea of like the hometown, the home content, the home representation, or if that like all human stories are kind of the same.

Allan Hawco  3:31  
I don't know. I mean, you just kind of go with what you're trying to store you're trying to tell, and then you hope that you execute it well, and I think that's a big part of it. You know, you mentioned Letterkenny, and everything else Jacob journeys touched in the last 10 years included heated rivalry. Obviously, I think you know,

Caitlin Green  3:49  
never heard of it. For yeah, we don't, that sounds familiar, but I don't think I know

Allan Hawco  3:54  
it well. It just swept the Canadian Screen Awards in every category that I was nominated, so I'm well aware of it. I pretended to get up every time that they were about to announce the award. This is me

Jann Arden  4:08  
this time. Here we go, and Alan Hawke,

Allan Hawco  4:11  
the no, I'm so happy for them. I'm happy for the industry, but I feel like you got to go with what your best version of your story is for yourself. There's no recipe, right, or everyone would be doing the same thing, and I think every time the industry tries to get into, gets caught in that trap of trying to recreate a concept that they deem would be successful, or something, everything shifts, and the industry gets stale. So, for me, you can't, you know, you, you go with what your best instincts are, in terms of what you think an audience would like, whether it's domestic or international, but you just kind of, and then you really need to try to execute it well, like you know, creating production and television or film is really challenging, it's very expensive, and you need to, it is, you know,

Jann Arden  4:54  
it costs, yeah, you know, there's no matter where you are, yeah, it's just. Not cheaper in Canada. If anything, it can be more expensive and more challenging.

Allan Hawco  5:04  
People don't know that. They think they.. how would they know? You know that how long it takes to shoot a scene, and they have no.. God,

Jann Arden  5:11  
it's laborious to say the least. Like, I'm thinking of all the Republic of Doyle episodes over the years, and it makes my head spin, because I know, okay, there's that camera, there's this camera, there's a two shot, we got to get you coming through this door, we're going to have you like it's just the time that goes into even 30 minutes of television is exhausting, and obviously the finished product looks fluid and easy, and the actions there, and the edit edits are there, and people are so used to consuming so much content that I don't think they realized. Do you know how fucking long it took to make that dragon jump off that goddamn building? God damn it, it was a team of 100 people, and you missed it because you went and took a shit. I don't even know, Alan, I'm making it up.

Allan Hawco  5:56  
I wasn't on the show with the dragon, it could have been.

Jann Arden  5:58  
It was one of your shows. What kind of a kid were you, and what kind of a family did you grow up in?

Allan Hawco  6:04  
I probably am the same kid, really kind of. I had a.. I'm the youngest of four. My father worked on the Bell Island Ferry. We moved to the Goulds when I was young. My mother's a teacher, two sisters, one brother. My father's no longer with us, but my mom is still going super strong. Yeah, you know, it's what Bob Howard said to me when my mother-in-law passed away as the best line. He was like, it's a club none of us want to be in, but unfortunately, we all have to be a part of it, or something along those lines. The truth, good family, really nice people. Grew up in Newfoundland, you know, I grew up in a place where I think people are genuinely very funny, very cool, very generous. It was a really welcoming, and every child did everything, you know, you have your tough stuff, but just the wit, man, they're so funny, and that's like a kind of a really positive way to grow up, I feel like, because you know, matter what situation you're in, if someone's hilarious. I remember being like one of my first fights, you know, as a kid, in like grade nine, like really big ones, not like my first fights, but you know, 3o'clock you're dead after school, that kind of thing, and I was on my way to the field on my bike, you know, I can't hold rage for longer than like five minutes, right. So it happened at 10 o'clock, and then it was three, and I was like, I'm not even mad anymore. I can't remember what I was mad about.

Jann Arden  7:26  
What, what, what happened? What are we? Why are we doing this?

Allan Hawco  7:30  
Oh, there's some IP, and people were picking on me, or whatever, and I flipped out. And then we're on our way to the place for the fight, and this guy's name was Steven Piquette.

Jann Arden  7:40  
We're coming for you, Steven.

Allan Hawco  7:42  
No, he's hilarious. On our way down to the to the field, I'm riding my bike, and he was, I was riding past him on the way to just seemed so absurd to me that we're going to this place when we and he said to me, Hako, give us a double down, will you? And I almost did on my bike, doubled him to where we were going to go fight together. It just made me laugh so hard. He beat the hell out of me. But we were friends after.

Jann Arden  8:06  
Did you ever have the urge to pick yourself up and move to LA or go move, live in New York? I mean, obviously a Canadian career, and we talk about this a lot in this country, is the absence of a star system, it's there, it's just on the brink, but it's certainly not comparable to our US or international counterparts, as far as recognition, as far as the money that we're paid for the projects that we undertake, it's, you know, but yeah, the desire to, but you're in Newfoundland, you live there, you live there with your family,

Allan Hawco  8:41  
yeah. I mean, you're, you know, you know all about it. You did the same thing. So, the star system thing, first of all, is funny because he thought, you know, you're a genuine star, and I'm not, you know, you know that, you know what I mean. Music, you guys have a, you kind of have a system where you know anyone who knows that I know have even met you, they flip out all ages, like I'm Rick Mercer. I had to interview Rick Mercer once for this thing, our friend Rick, and he was like, I know you're gonna ask me, he was like, but I'm not gonna answer any of those questions, because I know the only thing people want to know is how Jan Arden is in real life, and that's that's like was his answer, and

Jann Arden  9:23  
Jesus. Well, I get the same shit about him. So

Allan Hawco  9:27  
he's famous too. He's also really famous, like you are. And you know, Alan Doyle - I've been friends with him my entire life. He's genuinely famous. And the music side of things, I feel like you guys were ahead of it. The television and film side of it's trickier, because we, for a long time, I don't think Canadians, it's hard for them to distinguish what we are between our cultures, between the US and Canada. We also have this ginormous land mass, you know, of a country with 40 million people, it's, we're so spread out somehow. We're still all Canadian, but if you were an alien and you were looking down from outer space, you'd be like, "Wait, what is the difference between those two cultures? You know, you've really got to get into the weeds in a way that we understand, and I feel like from a television storytelling perspective, you know, back to Caitlin's question earlier, from an international perspective, why we landing? I feel like the real answer to that is we're landing in a domestic way that we didn't for a very long time in this country, and we're competing domestically for an audience like my show, St. Pierre's, you know, goes toe to toe with any American show that's on against it, from a linear perspective, I mean, we're talking about actual viewers, right, and Doyle was as successful as it was. He was before streaming, and we're very close. We're within a real striking range to the same amount of numbers from linear viewers as we were on 2010 for Doyle, which is crazy, because that was a million plus viewers per week, and now we're, we're, we're coming close to that would say Pierre Weekly, which is impressive, and I think

Jann Arden  11:03  
phenomenal. It's phenomenal. If a Canadian show has 200,000 eyes on it on an episode, it's considered very good. So, when Alan speaks about having a million, you know, eyes on a television show, it's.. it is astounding, and it doesn't happen very often,

Allan Hawco  11:21  
you can't plan it, you know. We were, you know, we're not quite at a million from a linear perspective, where we're pretty freaking close. And I think that's a big thing too, is like if it resonates, if we're speaking to Canadians in a story with stories they want to hear, and all that, that helps promote the star system. But then there's this just the space, like I go to Vancouver, you know, your average person doesn't have a clue who I am, because it's so far away from, they don't even know what Newfoundland is half the time, so it's kind of like

Jann Arden  11:50  
they've never been out of their communities,

Allan Hawco  11:52  
because the country's ginormous, you know, and they have their own shit to do, so they have their own, they have their own stuff, so it's kind of a miracle that we have any industry at all. It's kind of where I come down to, and I never - I was never against moving away. I just didn't have to, you know. So I know I was working in Toronto, working in, working in theater across the country, and then I got to do some stuff where I didn't have to leave, and I just - I love LA, I love New York. I mean, geez, I would have loved to have in a split of myself in a couple of different lives, where I went and did theater. I almost did that in my 20s, pursued classical theater there, for I was about to, yeah, I was about to get, I was very close for a lot of things that, like, we're very, very close, like offers and all that stuff, and I just didn't feel like moving yet. And then I had a TV show, and then

Jann Arden  12:47  
life,

Allan Hawco  12:47  
one years later, here we are. Yeah,

Jann Arden  12:48  
life, Caitlin.

Caitlin Green  12:50  
I feel like the something that I've noticed recently, too, is like the comedy aspect for Canada specifically as well. So, you know, like, we obviously we have these like unique stories, this unique perspective, but I feel like Canadians, I mean, per capita, are sort of like punching above our weight class when it comes to comedy, and you know

Jann Arden  13:08  
your

Caitlin Green  13:08  
show is kind of like, even though they're like, you know, it's crime, it's procedural in that way, but they're funny, like it has that Newfoundland, it has that charm, that Atlantic Canada humor, you know, recency bias, but like the documentaries about John Candy and Martin Short, and they really show you all of the Second City comedians, like, what role do you think comedy plays in making Canada kind of this, like, you know, beloved place, and that makes our content kind of like special and almost cozy. Dare I say,

Allan Hawco  13:34  
yeah, just incredible at it. You look at the entire international perspective and you single out the people who are not, try to single out the people who are not Canadian, who are part of that comedy community.

Caitlin Green  13:47  
Yeah,

Allan Hawco  13:47  
it's out of control, you know. And one good thing that started to happen, too, which was very strange, you know. I met Lauren Michaels after a friend of mine did Saturday Night Live, and I went to the after party and sat at the table with him, and, and I, you know, he's wearing his Order of Canada pin, and I was like, "Hey, well, it's, you know, it's nice you're wearing the pin. I've just met Paul Schafer a couple of weeks ago, he's wearing his pin, it's like, for a long time, we didn't really acknowledge the people who left to bring them back into the to the circus, you know, like we kind of like there was this lobster syndrome of like you know you're crawling out of the pot, you can go fuck yourself, and it's like Mike Myers just recently getting honored, like it's just so nice to see that we're acknowledging the people who were out there in the in the world doing such amazing stuff who probably felt excluded from us in our little club in the Toronto clique, and the, you know, like there was like this sort of like strange thing that was happening for a long time, and I feel like it's so cool to see everybody embracing our successes, because they look at Mike Myers and look at Seth Rogen, and these guys, like they have never stopped talking about. Canada, Ryan Reynolds, also hilarious, you know, Ryan Gosling, hilarious, like they don't, they don't leave us behind, but I bet you any money they weren't invited a lot to the party as much as they probably would have liked to have been if I was, they left,

Allan Hawco  15:14  
yeah,

Jann Arden  15:15  
they were perceived as jumping ship and doing something else, yeah, it's interesting, but I think every culture kind of eats their young, and there's something about having ownership of people that they don't really want you to do well internationally. It's like when you discover a band, and I'll use, like Chapel Rowan, as an example, when she first started, she had a very clicky, elite little group of people, and then she just exploded internationally, and people kind of abandoned her, like, oh, she's big now, so it's not like my cool thing. And sometimes I think of Canadian television that way as well. I remember seeing working moms going on Netflix, or, you know, Dan Levy and Schitz Creek is a great example of the show's success, and and there was a weird perception of, like, oh, they've sold out. I'm like, what are you talking about?

Allan Hawco  16:06  
Like, imagine if Australia bailed on all their famous actors, like, they would have no one left. But it is, it is

Jann Arden  16:12  
kind of odd how we, how we do that. And I'm glad you brought that up about Mike. It was really very emotional to see him being emotional. I want to ask you about a little thing that you and I did at the CSAs a few years ago, and it was so goddamn funny, and you were such a good sport about it. You and I just did some ridiculous freaking song. I don't know who we were introducing, but oh my god, Ellen, you were so funny, and maybe Sarah will be able to find the clip of us doing this, the audio clip, but I think you were hilarious.

Allan Hawco  16:56  
You were well, I

Jann Arden  16:57  
hadn't met you before, that was the day, like I met you on the day at the CSAs, and we're at the piano, and I don't.. it was so fun.

Allan Hawco  17:08  
Well, you asked me to do it, and that was so nice. And I was like, you know, because we have a lot of friends in common, but we've never hung out. Yeah, we just did one rehearsal, I improv, one line, and you were like, that's it, that's the line, don't say the other part. I was like, you're right, totally right. Yeah, it was so much fun. It was so fun. I still get people talk to me about that. Oh God,

Jann Arden  17:27  
well, you are.. I mean, Caitlin makes a great point about how humor infiltrates even like the most dire dramas, maybe not Handmaid's Tale, maybe not Margaret Atwood, she might be exempt, but yeah. Tell me about how your family is impacting you now, and how your decision-making process, and you're getting a bit older, so I'm sure you feel a bit differently about yourself, and differently about the projects you take, and differently about how much time this is going to take and how that affects your decision making, is it little less self absorbed and a little more like,

Allan Hawco  18:14  
yeah, it's a question for my, you can ask my sisters that one, and they can answer that for you, no problem. Okay, so I'll tell you a Gordon Pinson story. So, Gordon Pinson is like my, was my motto in my idols, obviously. He was the North Star for a Newfoundlander, for sure. Even aside from a Newfoundlander, if you're a Canadian who wanted to write and produce and kind of pave your own way, he was the first person that I saw doing it, and he's from here. And then I met him and Paul Gross in the same summer at Soulpepper, because I worked with Charmian King, Gordon's wife, and Martha Burns, Paul's wife, and they were like, both were like, 'You have to be, you have to spend some time with my husband, and they were both right, both them kind of became mentors for me, but Gordon, when I created Republic of Doyle, you know, was older, and I wanted him to play the father, you know. I wrote every father part I ever wrote was for Gord, and he didn't want to do it because of the time. He was like, I don't know how many shows I've left, and I don't know how much time I have left to be doing them. So, and then he regretted it. A year later, I saw him, and he was like, 'Fuck, that was a mistake, I should have done it. So I write, you know, I started writing in parts more, but when I think, when you ask that question, I'm like, I try never to think about a plan, and which is hard, because I have a corporate entity that is a company that has like a mission statement and all that shit, and employees and things, and we have plans, because our plan is not just to do shows with Mina or me. Seth Rogen's like a great example of, though, I love the way he does it, where he's producing all these shows that he has nothing, he's not in, or he's, you know, he's not writing or directing, and then he gets to do make major impacts on the industry, like Preacher and the Boys, and all that stuff. And I, you know, we're kind of looking that way as a company, but as a person, I love working so much, I don't know if I get selective, I mean, you get selective if you read something and it doesn't speak to you, that's not going to work, but I love a good challenge too, like someone, also the Canadian actor in me is, is like, oh, you want me to do this, then I should definitely do it, I can't believe you even know I am, thanks so much. Then I get to take the job normally. Yeah,

Jann Arden  20:25  
can we talk about failing? What do you fail at? What's some of your big Jesus? No, is it? Is it something that is frightening to you? Has, I mean, obviously you're extraordinarily successful, and you seem very level headed, and people speak very highly of you, so it's a small circle in which we operate in, and so if you're a dick in Canada specifically, it will come around and it will sit there for years until you redeem yourself. I've known of people that have just, they've kind of canceled themselves just through shitty behavior. I never have heard a disparaging word about you, which makes me comfortable, because I know the truth, and I know your character speaks loudly. But, like, as far as, like, just failing and doing things where you have that discomfort, I think I like talking about that, because I think our listeners, we all fail all the time, but how do you kind of get your head around it? You've maybe you've always won, maybe you've been.. no, I don't mean to laugh so it's a Canadian, I'm a Canadian actor, it is fit, like an oxymoron. Yeah,

Allan Hawco  21:44  
totally. There's that, you know, Macros that Macbeth quote. What if we fail? We fail, and we just fail. We fail all the time. What are you gonna do? That's my whole life. That's your job. But some people stop trying.

Jann Arden  21:54  
Some people just stop. They, they're just like, I'm never gonna be that. It's not gonna happen. Or do you? Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm asking you to advise the listeners, Alan. Give them some hope, for God's sakes.

Allan Hawco  22:10  
Here's my TED talk.

Jann Arden  22:12  
Yes,

Allan Hawco  22:14  
failure, that's how it would open. I find Ted Talks just the funniest fucking thing in the world. It's like, why are you talking? Who asked him? Who asked this guy to talk? Who is Ted? Shit, who is Ted? Why do I care about these stupid people telling me their vision of, like, obsession? I'm sorry if you do TED Talks. Anybody, the

Jann Arden  22:37  
Alan, before you go any further, my fiance is has a very riveting, unbelievable TED talk on the viewed, it's been viewed millions of times, but anyway, I don't want you to worry about it, that's an example of failure, just the way you've spoken about people that do TED talks, and it was rich, and my feelings are hurt now, but I will get past it

Allan Hawco  22:59  
without risk, we gain nothing, so I failed.

Jann Arden  23:01  
No, exactly.

Allan Hawco  23:02  
Fuck, fuck that up, didn't I? Well, hey, I failed everything. So, there's exceptions to every rule, so if your partner is really good at TED Talks, then that's the exception. I don't pick up on what

Sarah Burke  23:15  
you said about risk, though, because you, the path that you were on, I can tell that you have a TED talk coming. Let's hear it.

Allan Hawco  23:21  
Yeah, so the concept of failure, or being afraid of failure, is like it's absurd to me. It's absurd. The concept is absurd, that you, of course, you fail. Everyone fails constantly. The I had this thing, if I had a TED talk, everything's impossible, why bother worrying about it? You know, you can go into any kind of situation. I mean, if you get distracted by that, you're, you're dead in the water anyways. Nothing that's hard. Does it embarrass you?

Jann Arden  23:47  
Do you feel a sense of shame or embarrassment by failing?

Allan Hawco  23:51  
No, because you know you, you audition like a ridiculous child for your entire life, and you, you feel like you're going in there into, you don't go in rooms anymore, but when you used to go into rooms, you'd feel like you were just showing people your underwear and they're laughing at you, you know. It's so humiliating if you focused on it that way, and if you do focus on it that way, then it's probably not the best job for you. And if you get over it, you start getting parts, and you realize what the work is for.

Jann Arden  24:20  
Yeah,

Allan Hawco  24:20  
that's just the way the thing is, and I create television shows. I've created three shows from my brain that have been made into a show that people, bizarre

Jann Arden  24:32  
intellectual property is fucking weird to think about. You sit and you manifest, you pull things out of your imagination. Oh, this guy could be doing that, and he could meet, and then we could do this. There's a parrot, and then the dragon jumps off the building. But I mean, it is absolutely fascinating, the idea of making art from a thought. It's weird. I can't dwell there. It makes me wanna, well, that black hole collapse in on myself.

Allan Hawco  25:05  
What happens then? If you start to dwell on the fear side of it, or the risk side of it, you can't do that. You can't open your mind to that, and you know everyone's gonna think your idea is stupid. Like the first concept of the first show idea I had, the more people told me how undoable it was. The stronger I felt about it, because I was like, I don't believe you. I didn't say that to them, because what's the point. And then, as you get older, the longer you're passionate about one thing, and it won't leave you. I don't know if you have this thing about writing, but if I have an idea that I try, what I do now is try to dispel with the idea, try to get it away from me as fast as I can, and if it keeps chasing me, like the cat came back, I.. I'm like, okay, well, that, that has to stick around, that's something I should pursue. And then it starts to vibrate for you, and if I worried about failing at it, fuck, I mean, you wouldn't get out the door, right?

Caitlin Green  25:57  
I know to that point, like, because I guess, like, so the generation that I grew up in, I remember me and a lot of my peers, we were at kind of like a creative school, we had a really cool auditorium, all of us loved drama, I loved drama, I just loved being in the auditorium, the vibe backstage, but then all of a sudden you got into the guidance counselor's office and they were really trying to encourage you away from the arts, and it was because, and not to be like, a, you know, anti-capitalist or anything, but they were like, there's not going to be any money there. In my career, I was in, I was in radio, you know, now I get to do this podcast with Jan and Sarah, but I just found it interesting that, like, I felt like there was this disconnect between sort of being creative and making money in Canada. It was really like, well, it's kind of not a real industry here, and then you start working in it, and you're like, but it is, and then I think about, like, what you're saying, where you're like, well, yeah, I've done three shows, and you know, you're a writer, and you're a producer, and you have experience acting. I know there's a lot of listeners who listen to this podcast, and they've self-published books, like, they're still really trying, and they're artistically inclined, and so when people, I would imagine, ask you for, like, business advice, of like, how do you, you know, stay creative, but also, like, stay employed? What do you kind of tell them?

Allan Hawco  27:07  
So, I have a real simple answer to that. The guidance counselor thing is interesting, because I went to a not.. we didn't have in our high school, but it kind of weirdly became

Jann Arden  27:16  
one.

Allan Hawco  27:16  
So, we had this teacher, Tony Duffy, who was like this jock, essentially, but was a brilliant lit teacher. So, we were studying Shakespeare with this guy who was from Stephenville and loved playing ball hockey, but also knew what, you know, Shakespeare was about, and I, he blew my mind. A ton of us came from that school, a ton of very, very successful people in the arts, really strange from the little town that we're in, like a ton of them, Alan Doyle being one of them, you know. For me, everybody was supportive that I would be doing something like this, because I did it in high school, but you know that guidance counselor conversation wasn't, and it's not their fault. They just don't, they don't understand what you're talking about, like they just.. that's not a job, that's not a job at all. I didn't feel like anyone was against me because of it. I just felt like, and my answer to anyone who wants to start in the business is like, okay, and someone said this to me, fuck, when I was like 17 or something. Some actress, I can't remember her name, or she still does it. I was doing like volunteer Shakespeare by the Sea theater here in Newfoundland, and this woman one night, you know, we were definitely had been smoking about seven pounds of pot, all of us, and she was like, but Alan, can you imagine yourself breathing if you can't do it? Can you imagine yourself doing anything else? Can you imagine being able to live without doing it, and you know, I was like, no, I don't think I could, and that for me was the answer. And if you can say yes to that question, then you're probably okay to go do something else. It's not that simplistic, but for me, it's like it's an impossible job filled with failure, filled with negativity, and you know, and you can really get eaten alive by that if you're not, if you don't have a singular focus, which for me was never - I never wavered from the focus, and delusional. Look, we're all so insane to think that we could be, you know, you write songs for a living that the whole world likes, like that's insane, impossible, it's impossible, you Do

Jann Arden  29:28  
you think about legacy? Do you think about what you're leaving behind you as you create things? I wonder why, why, why does that make you laugh? Because I think it's such a unique thing to be plunked on this planet. Let's hope for 80 or 90 years, and to do all this creative stuff. Can you see people watching your show 50 or 60 years from now, and, and finding relevance, and finding.. do you don't think about that at

Allan Hawco  29:57  
all? I get uncomfortable, that's why I'm laughing, also. So I'm trying to imagine me, it's not that you or someone else wouldn't find that important. I just, whenever you think of legacy, I just think of this big dining room table filled with some man who's like just looking at all his offspring, feeling like powerful, because he has all these kids and legacy, and he's dead, man, he's dead, it's over, it's just nothingness. Let me, let me

Jann Arden  30:21  
reframe this. So, what do you think your impact has been on your own life? Let's, let's even take it away from a social impact or an artistic cultural impact. Let's leave that aside. What has the impact been on your life? How has it shaped you as a person, how you enter into relationships, how you think about world issues and politics and equality and women's issues. Do you think art has shaped you into a thoughtful man? I mean, men are being put to task, we want men to step into the light of the realization of what women go through in the plan. I mean, these are big picture ideas, but has art impacted you in a way that's made you more empathic?

Allan Hawco  31:13  
I hope so. Yeah, I mean that's the goal. I think you strive to go in to do better every day in and the stuff you said about my reputation and stuff earlier is not lost on me. That's really nice to hear, and it's the truth.

Jann Arden  31:28  
You hear if people are fucking idiots, people will tell you, "Oh God, I met him, he was a dick. They will say it the first thing that comes out of their mouth, that is a pretty good litmus test. Anyways, I didn't mean to cut you off, but it's the truth, folks.

Allan Hawco  31:43  
Please know, I hear you, and it's funny when you know someone that, anyway, I agree with you fully on that, and you can't pretend either. Anyway, back to your question, it's like striving to be better, right? It's like, so, okay, using the arts as an example through the window of what you're saying, in terms of legacy, for like what I like to have, what I feel proud about. I have a number of things to feel proud about, but terms of your contribution, like you know, the jobs and the employment and the cultural sort of impact of contributing to our story as a country, as a province in Newfoundland, and there's a lot of jobs around it, and I feel very proud of that. And from a sort of enlightenment perspective, like you go to theater school, if you're lucky enough to go to a theater school, I went to National Theater School. You know, you're meeting in 219 96 my first theater gigs and stuff. You know, you're meeting trans people and you know non-binary people before anyone even knows what that is, in a world where I'm from Newfoundland, and it's totally our normal reality, and you don't question it, because the theater community, in particular, where I was coming up, is so compassionate, and we're about pushing the boundaries of our own sort of conceptual thought in every, you know, in every direction, so you don't go into a situation like that with judgment, you're, you know, and then you, and then you're surrounded by people where, and the shame of being judgmental of that is like so decent, it's like you're, you're so, you know, you get a good head start if you, if you're born into a community like that, in terms of being someone who's like paying attention to not saying that you, I haven't fucked that up a million times, all I can say is that I'm, you're constantly trying to do better, and trying to, you know, there's this thing about, you know, our generation always shitting on the young people. Oh my god, that's all people do. Like, you hear people have the Gen Z ears are the fucking worst, like they're just.. and I'm like, no, they're.. but we got it from

Jann Arden  33:50  
the generation one or two ahead of us as well. So it's a very cyclical thing. I don't think it's indigenous to Gen Z, in particular, I think I remember my grandma saying, 'Oh, the music you kids listening to, Jesus Christ, what the fuck is Electric Light Orchestra? We didn't do that kind of shit. My favorite thing about the

Allan Hawco  34:13  
Bob Dylan movie, it's like, 'Well, Bobby, they want you to play the folk music, Bobby, not the rock and roll. It's like, yeah, okay, man, like, yeah, I'm with you, totally. It's, it's so.. it's ridiculous to me, because we went through it, and it's like, and we weren't shit, you know? Like, we're pretty good, and the 90s were

Jann Arden  34:34  
awesome, like, come on,

Allan Hawco  34:39  
my.. my niece and nephew were of that generation, and they're they are not shit, and all of their friends, they're just like we were, they were hustlers, and there were people who were good, and dickheads, and people who work hard, and people who are lazy in the same capacities the way it was for us. So I just am kind of like you just got to be pushing forward constantly, so that you're never the. What I never want to be is the person in the room who's like, oh, you don't, you don't get it about whatever issue, whether it's, you know, God,

Caitlin Green  35:06  
no. Well, I just don't get that. I don't understand it. You don't need to under fucking stand it. Just be a decent human before we let you go, because we've been speaking to you for over four days now. Caitlin would go ahead, because we like to leave our listeners with a little bit of a - it's like a little bit of a, almost like a mental health moment, where we like to ask our guests what they do to sort of like take care of themselves, I guess, like what you do to sort of make yourself happy and take care of Alan,

Allan Hawco  35:41  
that's a great way to, that's a great question, because I think it's something that also, in that same vein of what we were just talking about, gets made fun of a lot or dismissed a lot too, because it's like, oh yeah, yeah, but yeah, you know, like, for me, like, sleep

Jann Arden  35:58  
is

Allan Hawco  35:59  
integral, you can't mess with my sleep, or I can't help you. I can't put my mask on, your mask on, if I don't have mine on, you know, the old airplane thing.

Jann Arden  36:08  
Yeah.

Allan Hawco  36:09  
And then ice hockey is like my, is my safe, safe I play with this insanely great group of players here in Newfoundland, where we have our own dressing room with our own stalls with our names on it, where my gear hangs, and you, and they're a really decent group of people, and I don't spend a lot of time with men in my life, like most of the people I work with are pretty much women, and you know, my bro friends are like not bro, they were all kind of the same that way, and it's just very strange for me to spend a little bit of time with dudes, like an hour and a half every three days a week. It's

Jann Arden  36:45  
that's enough, Alan. That's

Allan Hawco  36:48  
totally, but I do have to write them, so you know, I gotta, I gotta vampire everybody. Yeah, so the ice hockey is a big, big, big one, because you can't focus on anything for that hour and a half, except for what you're doing, and they play so well for me to try to keep up with them, because they all played some level of pro, that that mental challenge for me to be able to keep up with them is amazing. And then, like, you know, having a really good time, as much as you possibly can, is really important to me. Like, I don't like doing anything I don't like doing for longer than seven seconds, I can't. That's when I'd be a dick, you know, that's when I turn into a dick. And I'm sure there's a whole slew of people that I've ran from, because I, but I don't think that you would have crossed paths with them, Jen. So that's why, because they're they're the cool people, fun, crazy freaks. We're in the circus, man. Live in the circus, if you're lucky enough to live in the circus.

Jann Arden  37:34  
Well, you, you should be proud of what you've accomplished and what you continue to do. It's always an industry that makes you examine self constantly. I don't think you can do things without going into it with an extraordinary amount of gratitude, you know. Just the people that support your art and support your work and cheer you on, and, and that you can continue. You know, a lot of times they just, they want you to be, you know, that they want you to be the Republic Doyle guy, they don't want you to grow and change, and I feel like we live in a country where, like, oh, what's he gonna do next, and that's so cool, except if you're on Murdoch Mysteries, and then you can never do anything else again. I did Murdoch, I did Murdoch too. Finally, I said, am I the only person in Canada that's never done Murdoch Mysteries? Come on,

Allan Hawco  38:21  
they wrote an episode called Republic of Murdoch, where we did a crossover where

Jann Arden  38:28  
I would find it.

Allan Hawco  38:29  
Yes, thought it was a good episode. Pete Mitchell wrote it. It's like we go back to Jake Doyle's great great grandfather crossover. Yeah, well, a lot of.. we did like an 80s buddy cop movie version of the show.

Jann Arden  38:43  
I love that we're gonna put that, we'll find it and put it in the show notes. You, thank you so much for doing the show. Caitlin and Sarah and I are so grateful, and keep doing what you're doing, and I will let you know if I hear any weird shit about you, Alan. Don't know, I'm gonna tell you, because you might have to do micro corrections, you might have to, might, Alan, I'm telling you, you might have to, you know, if you fucking throw a Timmy's at somebody sometime, just because you just, you could say it was a nervous, I wish I

Allan Hawco  39:14  
could throw a Timmy's at someone, would you, would that be great to have a Tim

Jann Arden  39:18  
bed at my friend Teresa, hit her right in the head,

Allan Hawco  39:20  
well, I bet it was that was probably hilarious. It was old, it

Jann Arden  39:24  
was hard, it was a, you know, Timbits. If they get older than three hours, you could break a tooth. You got to eat those things. You could. Thanks for being on the show. We appreciate you so much. Continued success. Alan Hocko has been our guest, and we hope that you'll come back and just keep telling us stuff, and you look the way the light has been hitting you has been quite lovely. I bet you, if Rick Mercer doesn't have a shed like that, I bet you could.

Allan Hawco  39:51  
He has a shed. He has a.. have you seen his shed?

Jann Arden  39:53  
No, he doesn't invite me anywhere.

Allan Hawco  39:57  
He has a shed out there in Chapel's Cove. I had to go out. You didn't invite me, I had to drive out there. Just okay,

Jann Arden  40:02  
all right. I don't feel so bad. You didn't get an invite, you just went. I'm just gonna show up. I'm gonna show up with day old Timbits. I'm gonna knock on their door and say, "Hey, what's happened? When

Allan Hawco  40:11  
they were building, they were building their house. I went out, just went out there, just went in there. The guys were like, they don't want India, they don't want, they want the walls to be white in here around Cuba, just white, just wipe off. I was like, yeah, he's like, because they're gonna put up a load of art. I think they're putting up a load of art in here, like, yeah, that sounds right. Fucking killed me. That was a very good

Caitlin Green  40:34  
Newfoundland code switch, right there, by the way. I feel like, if I were you, I would constantly just go back into the Newfoundland accent all the time,

Allan Hawco  40:42  
it's a funny one, because we were trained a million times to.. anyway, go ahead. Yes, sir.

Jann Arden  40:47  
If you.. if you ever.. if you ever need me, if you ever need me to do a mute none, a non-speaking role of a cadaver, whatever you want to come on the show on my show, I would love that so much. You don't even know, and I have some experience now. Yes, I have. I've got some real acting experience behind me. I

Allan Hawco  41:05  
follow you. I've been following, trust me,

Jann Arden  41:07  
don't write.

Allan Hawco  41:09  
Everyone's gonna, everyone's gonna flip out at this concept. By the way, so better be serious.

Jann Arden  41:13  
I would do it in a second, in a second. I'm very easy to work with, to a point, as long as you don't make eye contact, and then I haven't been making eye contact with you this whole time for that fear, because Mercer told me we have to stop now. Our Sarah is going to kill us. Alan Hockle, our guest, continued success to you from Caitlin Green, Sarah Burke, The Jenner and Podcast. We are going to bid you all a fine totally do

Unknown Speaker  41:39  
you

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