Nathaniel Erskine-Smith: From High School VP to Federal MP

0:01  
Well, hello there. It's Jann Arden, and welcome to the Jann Arden podcast. I am here, as always, with Caitlin green and Sarah Burke, and guess where they are. They're in their Toronto homes. I'm in my Calgary home. I have been on a whirlwind. Just got back from Iceland, and it was magnificent, but I'm very happy to be here with you beautiful people, and we've got lots to talk about. There's been lots going on. We had an election in Canada. Half the country's a little bit disappointed, and the other half is kind of cheering in the aisles. But, you know, we're hoping for, we're hoping for a centralist approach to how Canada goes forward, and that everyone can kind of hold hands, kiss and makeup, and let's just get this right. Let's go into the next five years kicking ass, right?

0:48  
Yeah, I agree. Honestly. Did you

0:50  
try to, like, stay alert to what was going on with the election, or did you try to keep away from it while you were away? No,

0:56  
Chris and I were back in Toronto, so on Monday afternoon, we arrived, and the polls obviously don't start closing until 9pm so I sat up as long as I could, and then the CBC called it. Other news outlets started calling that. It looks like it's going to be a liberal minority, and a lot of times, the West feels a little disgruntled because of how our electoral counts work. It's a little different than the United States. But, you know, they've tried to divvi it up fairly. They've tried to there's actually three more members of parliament on this election, and sections of cities and rural areas were literally cut up differently to show the population growth and things like that. But yeah, I wanted to stay up to watch the Pierre polyev MP seat unfold. So

1:43  
I get a text at 1052 on Monday night from Jan that just says, Thank You, Jesus Carney. I loved it amazing. And I saw on, like on threads, there was a randomly another, she's kind of like an influencer and works in media, and she posted the next morning saying that she was she lived in my neighborhood in Toronto, and this neighborhood was very liberal, and was like, our neighborhood is buzzing daycare drop off this morning. Was feeling good and but I do, I know what it's weird. I always feel for the people whose candidate didn't win in an election, and that's been me, and that's been other people, just because, you know, I hate the feeling that anyone is like disenfranchised from democracy or from our voting process, because I do think it's not perfect, but it's the best we have. So that always bums me out a little bit. But I do think that with Canada, you know, at least, we have a system of parliament where there is no majority government right now, it's a minority government. So you still have so many representatives, if you weren't a fan of Kearney in this election, who can represent you and your interests, and it really should increase the ability of these two parties to hopefully work together. I don't know if that will happen, but remains to be seen. But yeah,

2:59  
yeah. It feels like Carney was just, you know, this, this is a safeguard of democracy. That's how I kind of looked at it. Yeah. I

3:08  
mean, it's, it's a system that exactly what you said, Caitlin, it is what it is. It works the way it works. I love the fact that in Canada we hand count ballots, which is a very it's such a tactile thing, there's literally human beings, and then they have an overseer, many hundreds of volunteers, 1000s of volunteers, in fact, that make these elections possible. And you know, you see lineups where you feel safe and comfortable standing in a line no matter what your you know how you're going to cast your vote. There's many, many countries on this planet that people are literally frightened for their lives to go stand in a line and vote. They're intimidated. They don't have the opportunity for democratic elections. So all the things that we're kind of raging against the machine about in this country, about our freedoms and about the Charter of Rights, and all these things that people have been up in arms about, there's a dog fight going on behind me, if you're hearing their little tags. You guys, enough. Anyway, it's um, we have all those things. We really do. Have a very free country, and we have a wonderful system. And, you know, we still have universal health care, although sometimes it tends to be hanging by a thread and wait times and but our population has grown exponentially in the last five or six years. I mean, we have been taking, gladly, 500,000 new Canadians into the country every year, whether they be fleeing terrible situations in their own country, whether they're coming here for an education, whether they're literally immigrating here, you know, through channels where they're not coming from war torn countries. This is a shining jewel on this planet. And I think what happened with this election is pretty special. I was hearing from people, friends of mine, from all over the place, were saying, Thank you for being a shining light. You know that it didn't go far right, and that the world kind of needs a signal of. I'm kind to say that we are swinging back more to the center, because I don't think the extreme left works either. Folks, it sure does not like it has to be fair.

5:10  
Yeah, it does have to be it does have to be fair. And you want it to feel fair for people, so that they don't become vulnerable to this crazy level of misinformation that happens, and this sense that the place that we live is a bad place and that it's broken, and that was a message from the conservatives that didn't really resonate with me, because Lord knows, and if you listen to this podcast, you know, I have my complaints about stuff and how it works in Canada, I think so many things could be improved upon, but I appreciate the fact that we live somewhere where I truly believe that at least 50% of people who go into government here still do it because they want to make things better for people in their community. You know, that's not everybody, but I think in many places in the world, it's like 100% of politicians go into that business to line their pockets, to get absorb more power and to become rich, rich and powerful. That's the only reason they do it. And I just think that we're kind of this, like, still a bit of a Down Home element of public service. And I have a friend to your point earlier, Jan, who is, she's now a Canadian citizen. She married one of my friends from high school, and we went to their wedding, actually, in Peru. She's Peruvian, and she said it is. She replied to one of my like posts where I was talking about how much I like the Canadian electoral process for federal elections because short campaign periods, hand counted, paper ballots, all those things. And she said, it still is crazy to me, being from Peru that there aren't any guns like that. There are no guns at our polling stations. I can't believe like armed guards standing there saying, Yeah, armed guards to make sure the ballots aren't being stolen, to make sure that people aren't being targeted. People aren't being targeted, to make sure that it's safe, because of how unsafe it is to vote in so many places in the world. So like to your point again, it is special. We call things quickly here, we make it really accessible for people to vote, and I think that's something that everybody should be proud of, even if your chosen candidate didn't win this time. Yeah,

7:01  
it's still always exciting. I mean, as many times as I've been able to vote in an election, you know, my guy didn't win in my riding, in Rocky view County, the conservative obviously won. It wasn't the Liberal candidate. So and I knew when I was standing in that lineup, but I still felt like this vote counts. It certainly counts in the popular vote, which the Liberals haven't won, really, I don't think they won it with Trudeau in the last election, they didn't win the popular vote. So, but it's pretty split down the middle.

7:30  
Quick tease of our guest who's coming up later on the episode. Maybe perhaps listen. Nathaniel

7:34  
Erskine Smith is our guest today, and what a better time to have a member of parliament on our show. This is a man that I have known for quite some time. He has worked with us on the horseshit campaign, but he does a lot of stuff for animal welfare. He's an exceptional guy. And you know, anyone who's in public office can attest to the amount of vitriol that you receive the amount of threats like it doesn't matter if you're the most beloved guy in your community, you're going to have people from across the country on the other end of the pool yelling insults at you and telling you your hair is not right and you look stupid in those glasses. So it's inescapable. So I do commend Nathaniel for running again, running a great campaign. A lot of these races were tight.

8:21  
Oh yeah. I mean, you've known him a long time. I would say I've known him a little bit longer.

8:29  
Then please do do one up me. But you go ahead,

8:34  
he was actually the vice president of my high

8:36  
school. He's still in politics.

8:37  
I thought I was just gonna say he is the type of person who, when you see them go into politics, you're like, Oh yeah, like, you were interested in the role of civic duty in our high school. So, and he was good. And I think he come, you know, as his father was actually my English teacher in high school. Like, comes from a really great family, like, you know. So it's just one of those cool stories to have some kind of, like, a little bit of, you know, way back in the day, personally. Oh, I

9:06  
love that Caitlin. And you know what? I knew that I completely forgot about it. So I'm sure you got some Nathaniel stories that maybe we can wait and save and playing

9:15  
Street Fighter in our student council room. We'll talk about that. So he wasn't your boyfriend. No, he wasn't. He was two years younger. Oh, we might have danced together at like, a high school. A high school dance, though.

9:24  
Oh, I love that dance where you just like our bowl, two bowling pins going back and forth. I love those,

9:30  
not the dancing that happened at our

9:32  
high school dances. Did either of you run for student council? I didn't.

9:36  
I did run for student council, and I believe I did make it on I might have even been the president in my 12th grade or the Vice President. You

9:45  
guys are cool

9:47  
later. Well,

9:48  
I wouldn't go that far.

9:50  
President is the lead. I No, I think

9:55  
I did. I think I don't even think I wanted to. I think my name was just sort of sketched into. Ballad. But let's keep in mind, there was 42 kids in my class. You were real popular. It wasn't a very deep pool of critical thinkers out there in spring bank high school that were going to lead us through the difficult times of our teenage years. But anyway, I was in charge of the grad hiring the grad band for the dance to challenge yourself. It was put upon me. We had a live band that's so cool. And it was with that live band that I got up there at 18 years old, borrowed the guy's guitar and sang a song for my graduating class, and nobody knew that I was a singer. No, you've told the story. Yeah, yes, yeah. And my mother was shocked. I didn't even know you like music. And my dad was probably having a rum and coke. Mind you, he might not have been drinking at that time. He sort of was on again off again.

10:49  
It was he started drinking after he heard you sing. He's

10:51  
just like, that was the worst thing I've ever heard. But yeah, high school, I have fond memories. You're not gonna see me saying anything or hear me saying anything just disparaging. I

11:07  
remember doing, like, a really embarrassing, some sort of choreographed dance on stage with a few of my friends, but I ran for like, the PR person in the

11:17  
studio, like a PR, oh, I could have run for that. I didn't. We didn't have that, but

11:22  
I could see the posters that we created. I could still see it. It's burned into my brain we put like an afro on me for whatever reason, and that makes sense. I still don't even know why we did it, but I'm like, no wonder I lost. Oh, my God. I'll see. If I have a picture anywhere, I would love

11:39  
to see that one of my very best friends, who I'm still close with, was the president. So he was the president, then Nathaniel was the vice president. Then there was, like, a treasurer, I think there were four seats, and like, at this point, I knew everyone who was on Student Council. Thus the student council office was the hangout for people who had friends on council. And we put in a big TV with old video game systems, and it was near the cafeteria. So we'd go to the cafeteria, we'd get one of the giant cookies, chocolate chip cookies that had the soft, gooey middle and

12:08  
Caitlin has not changed since high school. No. And then we

12:11  
would crush game after game of Street Fighter until some teacher came down and was like, Don't you have somewhere else to be?

12:18  
We don't have any. Well, listen, we all we can read. All of us in here can read. So thank you very much. Bye. Bye. I'm very, very glad that I graduated high school. They wanted me out of there. I told you that I took an agriculture course. I got three credits for writing a manure spreader like the last in 12th grade, so I was able to get my diploma anyway. Moving on, there's so many things to talk about, and I do want to kind of recap. Kind of recap just quickly. I don't want to dwell here, but I want to talk about the vitriol and the fallout from the Katy Perry space experience. Oh, we're going, I just it's still, it is still very much part of my social media everywhere. It's still really taking up my for you page on Tiktok. It's very much on my algorithm on Instagram. So she started to speak to that while her tour is not selling well, I've seen clips of the tour that looks so unbelievably uncomfortable. She comes out riding some kind of a bug. She's having a fight a samurai sword. It looks like she's fighting a dryer hose that has come off. It's venting and it's flying through the air. But I'm telling you, the look on her face is one of discomfort, and it actually breaks my heart. So I'm not, I don't want to join into the noise of what happened, but I don't think she was at all prepared for this. And I'm kind of like, okay, guys, you made your point. I don't like to see people eviscerated. It bothers me on a very human level, yeah, and in the moment, yeah, it was kind of a dumb thing to do. And we think about the money, we think about climate change, we think about the optics on what a journey like that looks like for very rich, privileged women that you know went weekends to do the training to strap in the seat. Like, I don't know, maybe there was more to it, but I want your opinion on this, guys. I could be

14:10  
wrong, but I don't think Katie Perry is a nice person. That's, that's my honest like, I don't know her armchair take because she's been embroiled in several legal battles about real estate with, like, taking advantage of senior citizens, and one was getting into it, yeah, and one was getting into it with nuns whose convent she bought out from underneath them, and then they got into this protracted legal battle, and one of the nuns died during the legal battle, like it's just it felt, and also she's been in enough sort of whisper network to be confirmed drama situations with other female artists that it's a bit of a where there's smoke, there's fire with her, like, the vibes seem off, I would say. And then the part that I kind of was like, oh, wait a minute, talk about marketing. Like 101, so her tour is called the. Lifetimes tour, which, as you pointed out in an earlier episode, Jen, sounds a lot like the era tour for for Taylor, but

15:05  
it is exactly the Eros tour. Yeah, the lifetimes, it is a blatant rip off. Enough said,

15:14  
and the two of them have had their issues and stuff in the past anyway. So the concert, the way that it's described is that it's presented like a campy video game concept where she is a humanoid dubbed KP 143 battling an all powerful AI called the mainframe that has kidnapped all the world's butterflies. Like that's the premise of her thing, her tour. And it's a very terrible idea. It looks very terrible. It seems not entirely unconnected to space and technology. And then she goes to Blue Origin. And then, so there's just too many things that kind of like, I don't know there's, it's, it smells a bit to me. So I just there. There is something about Katy Perry that kind of like, I don't know, just artistically rubs me a bit the wrong way. I loved her in her, her left shark era, when it was the Super Bowl Halftime Show, and she obviously has some massive pop hits, and she's talented, but I want her to take a break. I want her to, like, pull a Tina Turner or Shania Twain and go to, like, the Swiss Alps and just like, take a breather, reevaluate herself artistically, and like, come back. I

16:14  
think it still goes back to what Caitlin said, you know, the few episodes ago, where it's just like, can we think about this before, like, jumping into a situation like this, the PR of it all, like you have a PR team and someone at some point must have said, this isn't going to be a good look. Or

16:30  
did they cheer her on? This is very difficult to understand, unless she doesn't listen to management or direction at all. Anyway, I yeah, I can't just be unfeeling. It would be uncharacteristic of me to do that. I mean, I know sometimes I can just jump in there and kind of make fun with the rest of them, but I am starting to, starting to feel cringy about, you know, the Gayle King stuff has been funny to kind of to watch, too. But Gail, Gail, I don't think, takes it on like Katy Perry is taking on. Maybe Katy Perry doesn't have any sense of what kind of person she is. I think Gail is in her 60s, and I think she knows very well who she is, and she kind of owns it, and her stand on it comes across as a little more kind of fuck you, and I'm not worried about it. But Katie has been trying to apologize. She said she regrets going. She wishes that the footage from inside the little capsule had never been released when she's holding up the daisy. And you know, I think you know, some of the statements that everyone made coming back were a bit a bit much.

17:39  
I feel bad watching them collectively get dunked on as hard as they have, but yeah, it was, I don't know, I also am like it was bad.

17:46  
It was, it was bad. Moving on. Yes, the space capsule thing was uncomfortable, to say the very least, from the beginning to the end, while we're kind of in Jeff Bezos world, I would like someone to comment about what was announced, I think, the day before yesterday, about Amazon in their pricing, including what cost it is to the consumer, but the tariff from the tariffs that Donald Trump has imposed on every country around the world. So a spokes lady came on our nice spokes lady, and just said that it was tyrannical. And shame on Jeff Bezos. And how could he do this to the star of Home Alone two, Donald J Trump.

18:35  
Was that his his press secretary, the one who does the White House briefings? Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh, the state TV woman, yeah.

18:43  
The best headline is, Amazon accidentally told the truth about what Trump's terrorists are costing. So

18:48  
I don't know if they're still on there. I meant to go look at Amazon. I don't think they are here. They

18:53  
never did it. Canada. They didn't do it. They never did it. No, okay, so this was a rumor that they were going to do this. Now, how founded that rumor was? I'm not sure I think that they I honestly do think that there was it was being considered. Let's say that I do honestly believe that they were considering doing this because they're worried about losing business and people assuming that Amazon is raising prices, when really they want them to know that it's because of these tariffs. The majority of so many products that you buy on Amazon are made in China. China is incurring the largest tariffs of any country that is going to have them. So then when this happens, the story comes out, catches on like wildfire, and apparently a phone call happens between Trump and Jeff Bezos, and after that, Amazon roundly denies that they are going to display the impact of tariffs next to the party. The price of products on their site. Well, I thought

19:45  
they were in bed together. I thought all those billionaire guys were just like, rah, rah, rah. And I also, Further to that, have just read that Elon Musk is now going to be exiting Doge, and he will no longer be as active in the White House. He's very concerned about the test. Tesla stock dropping into

20:03  
what I was driving behind a Tesla the other day on the way to a golf game. I'm with my buddy in the car, and someone's taped up the Tesla the logo, and then right beside it, like on, like what you would see, it looks like a bumper sticker. It said, I have nothing to do with Elon Musk,

20:21  
those are really popular. And there's another one that's been selling out like crazy that says I bought this before Elon became an asshole.

20:27  
So I was just like, Wow. I didn't expect to see this. Like in Mississauga, Ontario,

20:32  
in Iceland, they are every second car

20:36  
really like the Teslas are everything. They're very

20:39  
green. Iceland is is fueled by geothermal energy from the heat under the crust of the the earth. I mean volcanoes, they heat, you know, the entire city of Reykjavik, they use, they harness that power. But everyone is very forward thinking. And I think 10 years ago, when Tesla kind of started, you know, making itself known. A lot of people went that way because, let's face it, they have to import their cars in from Europe or wherever they come from. Everything is sailed over there. But they're, they're very they're everywhere.

21:13  
Were any American writers invited to that retreat? They were

21:17  
from all over the world. They were from all over the world. They were, sadly, quite apologetic in my little seminar things. And I think everyone did this, everyone at the faculty, kind of had 15 people say who they were, where they're from. They could expand on that if they wanted to. Some people talked about what they were working on, but I would say predominantly they were us people. There was some Canadians, there was Dubai, there was Switzerland, there was Australia. They were from all over the world. Next year the Icelandic writers retreat, so I highly recommend going. You know, they include a lot of really great things. I mean, imagine I had the former president of Iceland, he was my tour guide on a bus tour that the retreat organized

21:59  
because you had been, what was like something new you did, um, well, we went

22:03  
to the last time I was there. I didn't go to these geysers. So they're basically, I think they, they just saw it on your on your social, yeah. I mean, I didn't stand near Chris took my phone and he did it for it. I didn't want to get wet. And it's hot,

22:18  
it's cold and it's sulfuric. Oh, yeah, your hashtag was like smells like eggs, yeah. And

22:22  
it's very kind of that eggy smell, sulfuric smell, but it was very crowded. In fact, Chris said, when I was here 13 years ago, he said, My friend and I rented a camper van. We drove around the island when we came to this particular spot, which was touristy back then, but they just had a little tiny building. You had to walk way up on a gravel path. Now they have a huge Visitor Center. They have parking everywhere. They have 40 tour busses sitting outside like the tourism in Iceland has grown so much that I don't even think they can keep up with the amount of people coming to the city, it is unbelievably expensive. And I mean, to the point where it is definitely you have to plan for you. Got to buy groceries for your breakfast and your lunch, and even that is but look where you are. Mind you, they have a lot of greenhouses. They grow a lot of tomatoes and cucumbers and lettuces, and they they have all this heat that they can harness. But what an extraordinary experience it was. And and actually, Sarah and Caitlin, you guys are both aware, because I think we just booked one of the faculty members from

23:32  
Oh, an upcoming guest, yes. How do you pronounce her name? Thoris,

23:35  
the way she says it. And I'll have her say it when she comes on the on the program, but she's her story is really brilliant. I don't even want to tell you what it's about, because you want to do a teaser, coming up soon, coming Yes, coming up soon. I believe we tape her May the 12th. But anyway, fantastic

23:52  
experience. Wow. I love that. Being so organized, even though you're like, from a few time zones away, you're just back at it. I

23:59  
love, well, no, I will tell everybody that the girls were like texting me madly. Are you gonna hop onto Riverside? I'm blowing my hair. I'm out, literally standing with my hands on my hips, looking at the sun coming through the trees. My watch is buzzing. Are you coming on the call? I thought it was noon, like I'm a loser. These poor people. Anyway, we have a lot to cover today, and of course, we want to get to our guest, Nathaniel Erskine Smith, who is an old pal of Caitlin's from high school. We can't wait to hear what his take is of Caitlin in high school, even though she was an older lady, she was an old lady in high school. We'll be right back after this break, and we've got book club business to discuss which we're going to do as well. So don't go away. We'll be right back on the Jann Arden podcast with Caitlin and Sarah.

24:54  
Welcome back to the Jann Arden podcast and show. Thank you for coming back after that short break our guests. Today is amazing. I know this gentleman, and Caitlin knows him even better, as discussed, because they went to high school together. The small world, very small world. You are the you I'm going to tell you about yourself. Nathaniel, you are the MP for beaches, East York. Since 2015 you became Housing Minister, or Minister of Housing, as we say in the biz. In 2024 you also dabbled in commercial litigation and podcasting, among other things. So you are someone who I admire very much, and you've done a lot for animal welfare in this country. So I'm very happy to have you here. Please welcome Nathaniel Erskine Smith to the Jan Arden podcast. Yeah,

25:36  
it's great to be here. I mean, you took a chance and joined me for my podcast a long time ago, so it's, it's nice to be joining for yours.

25:43  
It was one of the greatest experiences of my life, mine too. No, it's very kind of you to have me on and to talk about all the stuff that I rage about all the time. Nathaniel, how are you feeling? It has been a huge 456, weeks, but half of the country is breathing a sigh of relief, and the other half of the country is not as excited about the results. Yeah,

26:08  
honestly, so in the east end of Toronto, we we're very fortunate. I've gotten to do this since 2015 and I mean, Caitlin knows, but like, I grew up here, and I get to represent the community I grew up in. And there's really, honestly, no better job than that. And across the country. I mean, I decided to run again in December as part of trying to make a difference on the housing file. And I don't think we were set to win 169 seats on December 20. When I took on that role, we were headed for a really tough election. And so it was a really good outcome, I think, in many ways, for you know, those who wanted to protect progress, those who wanted serious leadership. But, yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of work to do to reach across the aisle and trying to get things done together.

26:50  
It's pretty exciting. So what happens now are you? Will you continue in the the the housing infrastructure portfolio? What happens to you know, or are you allowed to even tell us anything? I

27:03  
can tell you. I mean, I can tell you that I don't know. So I Okay, you know, we will find out, I think, within days, really, what the makeup of Cabinet will look like, and, you know, and whether I'm back there, and then what role I'll be back and and hopefully Parliament sits soon after that, and we can kind of get back to work and and especially all things coming from the United States, making sure that we are I think there's an opportunity to work across party lines to not only push back against some of the rhetoric we see south of the border, but also to build the country up. But yeah, in terms of the official role, we'll we'll see waiting by my phone. Do

27:40  
you want me to call? To call more? Carney, you did send me a tweet couple weeks ago. We were very, very excited when I say we, I talk about me. I'm saying we as me. But yeah, I was, I was pretty stoked about that. Caitlin, you guys go back a long, long time. Tell us about Caitlin.

28:05  
Tell us everything.

28:07  
Nathaniel was a year beneath me in high school, so I feel like I got to know him best when he was a member of Student Council, which is some funny foreshadowing that you were the vice president of our high school and then went into politics, but I feel like I ran into him more then, because at that time, one of my close friends was president. So you probably remember me skipping classes, playing Street Fighter in the student council

28:32  
room. That's what the student council was mostly for. Was upper, yeah, upper students, you know, you and, and, I mean, even when I was in grade 10 and 11, it was even, you know, kids then in OAC that were filling up the room to play video games, although it was also, as I discovered, storage place for alcohol during student dances as well.

28:56  
We heard you dance like the slow dance.

28:57  
No, that was Jan said that that that I'm like, I

29:01  
don't remember that from high school.

29:03  
We were like, we were like, bowling pins in high school, we just and we always had chaperones tapping us on the shoulder if we got too grindy.

29:10  
Oh, no, no. We

29:12  
had, we did not have that experience said, Go separate. No. Six inches apart. We weren't allowed to touch hip bones or anything like that. We could save that for the upside down hockey nets

29:23  
we had, I don't know was this. Did this happen when you were still there? Caitlin, we had breathalyzers at our dances. Yeah,

29:31  
my God, so I think that that literally was brought into fashion maybe a year or two after I graduated. So it was

29:38  
probably because of your graduating year? I think,

29:43  
yeah, I have never heard of a breathalyzer at a high school dance. This is quite something. Nathaniel's

29:48  
dad was also my English teacher for a year, and so he took me on a trip to New York. We did sort of a literature inspired retelling of New York. City where we went to go see, you know, stuff that they would have pointed out in capture in the Rye. I think that was the main impetus to going, was that we were reading Catcher in the Rye, and then we went. And so, yeah, so I knew, I knew Nathaniel in high school, like, I feel like a bit like, well enough, yeah. And

30:16  
I could not take my I skipped grade 11 English, so I wouldn't have my dad as a

30:23  
teacher. No, really, I would

30:25  
have to, yeah, to not have your dad, but to not have my dad, he

30:29  
was a really good teacher. He was a really good teacher. Do you feel like that informed a little bit of your desire to go into politics. You were like, okay, like, like you saw your dad doing something meaningful, working in the public sector, probably complaining about all the strikes we had to live through in 100% Ontario education.

30:46  
Yeah, so my dad was a high school teacher, and then my mom was an elementary school teacher, and my first experience in politics, when you think about the effect that politics has on your life, was on the picket line in the Harris years where it was, you know, education was very much politicized, but in a really negative way by the government at the time, not really not supporting teachers and not prioritizing education. And so that's sort of the prism that I first saw politics through. And then, you know, my parents both had an impact, but my dad would have had a bigger impact just on public speaking. And he was, you know, the he took English and Drama very seriously. And so just growing up where rhetoric really mattered and language really mattered and public speaking really mattered. And that obviously, when I think back that that had a that played a large role in what I ended up doing,

31:34  
your parents must be really proud of you. How do they feel about all this? They're very

31:38  
proud. Yeah. I mean, they I was the first of my family to go to law school, first my family to go into politics in any way. They initially had some hesitation about me running for the Liberal Party. I grew up in an NDP household, and I think initially my dad just said, Ah, well, I'm glad you're not a conservative and and you know, in every election, they've been a huge both my parents have been a huge help. Huge helps. This election. They were a huge help again. But my joke in the first election, because my parents were quite well known just being local teachers, you know, in the first election, I joke that more people voted for my parents than voted for me. So it was and still, if you go door knocking with my mom around the Beaumont neighborhood, people will be like, Oh, Miss Erskine. You know, she's lovely. You must be lovely too.

32:24  
No, that doesn't hurt. I think having your mom coming with you speaks so much to your character, that you're, you know, this is who I am. I'm bringing my mom with me. I mean, I love that. I would fall over if the Erskine showed up at my door.

32:39  
I still have people that say they remember when my dad or my mom knocked on their door in 2015 and that's they voted for me then, and they're still voting for me. And you'll, you'll like this, Jan, but I was raised vegetarian because of my mom, and that's partly what brought me to the animal welfare advocacy

32:55  
Well, you have been, and I want to talk about that a little bit. During the election, there was sort of a zoom call, whatever you want to call it, all the parties showing up to talk about what the platforms looked like going forward in this election, and what each, you know, party was committing themselves to doing in regards to animal welfare in this Country. And as you know, we are lagging in a lot of areas, and how did that go? And how did you feel about that call? And of course, the Conservatives didn't show up for that particular zoom call. I just want to let everybody know that the Conservatives did not send anyone to participate in that conversation. I

33:40  
mean, that part was not surprising to me. I thought it was a good call. I mean, there was a lot of there was a real willingness to work across party lines on behalf of improving the lives of animals and strengthening animal protections. And we didn't get as much done in the last Parliament as we could and should have, and I was ragging the Conservative leader in the Senate pretty hard in that conversation, because he specifically blocked legislation that would have otherwise passed the bill I know that you are passionate about, among others, but the ban on banning the live export of horses for slaughter that would have passed in the last parliament, but for the theatrics and games that were played In the Senate, and I'm, I'm confident that in this Parliament, we'll see that passed, and I'm hoping we also see action to realize some of the promises. That makes

34:28  
me want to start crying to tell you the truth. Yeah, it makes me really emotional.

34:33  
It should have already still have a chance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's, it's, it's very likely to happen now that we have a new parliament in place, and there's that outstanding commitment from before and on, we didn't have specific promises laid out in the in the platform around animals, as we did in 2021 and when I asked about it, it was because, you know, we're laser focused on Trump and we're laser focused on. In the economy and some of the smaller issues, is not that we're not going to do them, it's just that they weren't front and center in the platform that all made sense to me. But they're, you know, I got firm commitments that we're going to take action on a range of things, including the live export of horses for slaughter. So I'm confident we're going to see some of this stuff through. And then, you know, more than anything, we just need to keep working across party lines. I don't think animal welfare is a part is an issue lots of people care about it. No, we gotta make sure we get things done.

35:23  
You make such a good point, Nathaniel, about caring about the smaller things and that they will get done. And I think government must be so overwhelming. There are so many issues that to the person bringing the issue forward, it's paramount importance to them, and perhaps to my neighbor, who could maybe give a crap about live force export. So it's not about cherry picking, it's just systematically going through, I would imagine, all these bills that are put forward, and just dealing with them in a democratic, fair process that involves people offering their opinions and having a vote on it. Yeah, you know. And

36:03  
I would say, I would add, we had an all party animal welfare caucus meeting specifically on the issue of the live export of horses for slaughter. And we heard from, you know, you were able to participate, and we heard from the horse defense coalition, that's all important. We also heard from scientists in this space who said it's impossible to it's impossible to do this in a humane way. It's just impossible. And I think in our roles, if we're responsible in these roles, we take that evidence and that science seriously. I want

36:36  
to hug your mother. I would like to go and vacuum her car out for

36:41  
her, or do like that's actually nicer than a hug. Yeah, any small

36:45  
things that I can do around the house? I think people like having their laundry done, and I'm quite good at it. But you know, just to see the influence that parents have, because I know my mom was very much an animal person, too, contrary to my dad, who was much more conservative in his views about animals. We don't need a goddamn dog. Jesus Christ. Why are those goddamn geese in the garage? And I mean, it never stopped with this guy, because my mom had everything. We had a magpie for a while that I swear to God, could say hello. We had rabbits that literally dug so far into their pen that we never saw them again. Their names were Charlie and Clara, named after my grandmother and grandfather. They were, you know, not domestic pets, but we fed them. We watered them. They had clean straw and everything. And one day, mom said, Well, I think those rabbits have dug out somewhere. They've come out the other side. It's like Alcatraz, she said. And so Charlie and Clara, I hope you lived out your lives in relative comfort and dug your and I hope your hole came up in the right place. That's all I want to if you're just joining the podcast and heard me say that sentence, it needs to be put in context. Tell me what are some of the things that you hope for yourself, personally, going forward? Because this is a huge commitment any kind of public service is, yeah,

38:08  
I mean, the real, honestly, the challenges. And even when people have talked to me in the campaign about, Oh, do you hope to get this role or to get that role? You know, you want to make the biggest difference that you can. And so the file that I did have on housing, and there's a huge opportunity to make a difference. There are lots of different there are lots of different roles where you can make a huge difference. And just as a member of parliament, you can make a big difference, too. So professionally, that's my hope. I mean, I'm in politics to make the biggest difference that I can. I'll say on a personal note, I have two young kids, so my wife is finishing her PhD and in Nutrition Sciences, and she's working, you know, she actually makes a big difference on animals too. She trains chefs and in large scale, you know, universities, colleges, large scale culinary settings, to incorporate more plant based food, and on their menus, she's, she's brilliant, and all sorts of things, but she's busy as all hell. And then I've got, we have an eight year old and a five year old, and so I honestly, my hope is that I'm able to get as much done as I can in barland. But also I want to coach baseball this summer again. So I love that. That's my balance.

39:12  
I would imagine is really paramount to what you do. As far as mental health, you're on the you're there's, there's a cacophony of noises coming at you. I think it would be very interesting to sit in on, you know, the in the house one afternoon, just to see the kind of discussions that go I mean, we all see the stuff on television, but I'm sure in real time, when you're actually standing up, you know, with your little translation headpiece in and and talking to The Speaker of the House, it must be so otherworldly. Maybe it's the word that comes to mind that you're standing there dealing with such huge issues in in a parliament that is the foundations are so old, like coming over from the UK and stuff, it's fascinating to me. I think, honestly.

39:59  
Jan, I think it's if you imagine the first year or two or three that you were doing what you do, and you had these huge audiences, and you were playing you on the road, and it's unreal. And then you become more comfortable in your own skin, and you're able to, you know, you're, you have a presence on stage, as I've seen you, and I think that's kind of how I would, you know, articulate the last 10 years. Is initially it, you did have that sort of, you were at times overwhelmed just by the, you know, at times pomp and sources of it, or the history of it. And now it's like, you know, this is, this is the job, and how do I make the most of this? And there's a comfort level to it. I've

40:42  
always wanted to ask someone this question. So obviously, we have MPs right across the country, and the House of Commons is in Ottawa. Nothing is going to change what the capital is, where our government does its work in the city of Ottawa. Can you walk me through what an average year looks like for an MP, let's say the guy that got voted in Rocky view County in my area. What does his year look like? Do they go stay for two or three weeks in Ottawa? Are they in a hotel and then they fly home? Like how do they manage life with their families here? Other MPs with young children that want to coach the baseball games. Can you just walk us through sort of how this works for the MPs, when house is in session, I'm so curious. It's,

41:26  
it's hard, actually. So the house sits 26 weeks of the year, and so half the year you are in Ottawa at least Monday to Thursday. Fridays are a little bit more flexible in terms of, we do sit on Fridays, but there's not, we don't have votes on Fridays. So the idea of mandatory attendance is not quite the same as it is Monday to Thursday. Virtual Parliament made this a lot easier, because in the pandemic, we couldn't all be in the same place. And so they stood up the technology we already had, but we adopted it to enable us to sit and vote virtually. We've maintained that, at least for now. And so that's, I think, given a lot of flexibility to young families and those who are looking after loved ones and and people who who do have to strike a better at home at times, they can be, yeah, for sure. So, but before that, it was, you know, I personally would fly in Monday morning. I would fly back Thursday night. You're away a good deal as a result, because it's 26 weeks that you're away at least midweek. It's a lot harder if you are in rural, New Brunswick or rural PC. I mean, you can't get home on it like I, you know, I'm in Toronto. I'm 20 someone minutes to Billy to Billy Bishop and and so I can do door to door in like, two and a half hours of I really cut it close. And so it's, it's a pretty hard, it's pretty hard to strike a balance without virtual Parliament, and even with virtual parliament, I mean, you've got late night votes, you've got committee obligations. So it's a, it's a really tough thing for anyone to strike balance. And I think that is actually the hardest part of the job for certainly for any younger person joining who wants to have, you know, be, in my case, a good dad and a good husband, it's a, it's a tough thing to do.

43:03  
Do people stay in the same hotels? Is it sort of optional, where they want to stay? And I'm gonna imagine, I would imagine, they get some kind of, you know, money to compensation

43:18  
is covered, and at least in part. So I actually bought a condo when I was first selected, and on the Quebec side. And in some ways, a regrettable decision, but I, but it was good for a while, because I, at that time, my kids weren't in school, and so they visit a lot. The idea was they would visit a lot more. As soon as Mac was in school, they didn't visit as much, obviously. And so you can, kind of, most people stay in hotels. And you can, you know, it's covered, you got a travel budget, and it's people stay, you know, people gravitate towards the same hotel, I think, over time. But you can stay wherever you like, and I and then, yeah, some people rent a full apartment or or buy a place if they plan to do it for a longer period of time. But, yeah, it's, you it's, it's a it and like, and then people will say, Well, what's Ottawa like? And I will say, I, I don't really know Ottawa all that well, because when I'm there, I'm literally, like, eating or sleeping in my place, and then I'm otherwise on parlor and Hill, and I don't spend a great amount of time in the in the general Ottawa area.

44:21  
Yeah, I liken it very much to touring, yes. I mean, it is tough, so I do want to commend everybody who embarks down a path like this, because it's an incredible, you know, sacrifice is a big word, but it is a, you know, you got to really love what you're doing in order to have half of your year in a city that's not your own, even with its virtual the virtual stuff, I don't care if you're sitting on a computer, it's exhausting, and to sit there and, you know, to have a cup of coffee or to to listen intently what's going on all the time and staring at that screen. I mean, there's no easy way of doing it, whether you do have those virtual opportunities. 90s, but, um, but

45:01  
when you tour, when you tour, like, on an average year now, how often are you on the road? 200

45:07  
days? Yeah, so off and on. Just, you know, because even when I do, like, I was just in Iceland for a week, but you know, you always have to include the travel day to get there the travel day to get home, like a lot of those days are spent in the air or on the ground or just traveling. But I'm used to it. It's all kind of what you you're acclimated to. But it isn't for the faint of heart, either. And some people travel in in very posh style. I know a lot of artists that are very wealthy, very successful people that literally fly into a gig in their private jet and fly home in their private jet, even if it's a four hour trip. So yeah, not the greatest carbon footprint in the world. But you know, for most of us, I would say 98% of musicians in the world working are boots on the ground, busses, vans, rental cars, you know, depending on very expensive commercial for lights that never leave when you want to. And in order to get to Saskatoon, you got to fly from Calgary to Vancouver, then Vancouver to Saskatoon. Like it's, it's nuts to try and plan how to get there, but, you know, you love what you do. It affords me a really nice life. And when I'm home, I love it, but I there's nothing else that I would aspire to do that's for sure.

46:24  
Yeah, and then you add in a political like so there's 26 weeks at least, you know, Monday to Friday that you've got to focus on Ottawa. But then in those other 26 weeks, a lot of the work, obviously, is in your constituency. But then you're there are events to go to, there are evening events, and it gets easier over time, because you build relationships, and you don't have to be everywhere all at once. But I remember, like starting out, I was everywhere all the time, and working to build relationships, attending, you know, attending, if it was, if it was your, you know, 100th birthday party, I might have been there like it was, it was, you know, really, just having a presence in the community, it's a lot of work when you serve 110 120,000

47:04  
people. No, I'm just curious, because to you mentioned this earlier, but it was such a unique election because the liberals were so far behind in the polls, it seemed like there was absolutely no chance of the outcome that we saw on election night this year. So do you have a sense of within the party? You know how much of this win is attributed to Donald Trump? That's such a strange situation to be in, but you're like, you know, it's not just, you know, the platform or the party or it's really a refusal of something that, all of a sudden, this external factor that started implicating every Canadian and perhaps galvanizing voters in a way that they may not have been previous to the tariff situation kicking off. So how does the party not that you can speak on behalf of it, but you are part of it. How do you feel like the sentiment is around? Okay, we know that we got in because it's a refusal for Donald Trump, but how do we still do all the work that we need to do and not just make him this primary focus.

48:01  
Yeah. So speaking for myself, but I did travel, you know, I touched 25 ridings in the course of this election in Ontario. So I did see, not only beaches East York, but I saw a lot of feedback from elsewhere as well. And it was a huge part of the conversation. It was not only part of the conversation in the sense of, we don't want that kind of politics here. And I think that war on Pierre poilievre, and people who are otherwise conservative would say, I usually vote conservative, but I don't know about this guy. He sounds, you know, some of the rhetoric, at least, sounds a lot like Donald Trump. You know, Canada is broken, and, you know, the war on woke and like, it's just it was this relentless sort of nastiness towards the Liberal Party we kind of see from the Republicans towards the Democrats, and so that, I think, cost the Conservatives support, which benefited us to a large degree. But then at the same time, there was this real concern to say, how, how are we going to manage through this when your long standing partner and ally and friend is no longer that long that reliable partner and economic friend. And so at that point, it became the ballot question. Is Well, who's best place to deal with this? And then enter Mark Carney, and I think fairness to Justin Trudeau, because on his way out, he had, I think, an excellent moment in speaking on behalf of Canadians and saying he did indeed, yeah, I think that was like a, you know, he was,

49:26  
if you asked, it changed the direction of our country. Yes, I think

49:30  
it was him exiting the way he exited with with, with grace, but also composure on behalf of Canadians. And then Carney entering with the experience that he has, it changed the conversation entirely. And while you had Doug Ford out there at one point being like, when in his election, he was like, Captain Canada, he was on Fox News, and he was making everything about standing for Canada. Paul, yeah, did not, you know, read the tea leaves as quickly, and he tried to come around near the tail end. But I don't think it. I don't think. It. It didn't ring with a real sincerity for a lot of Canadians. So, so, yeah, so, but to your point, Caitlin, like it does become, I think we this is partly why, when you look at the actual core promises in the election, it was respond with force to the threats from United States. Everyone ultimately said the same thing on that front, to protect workers. Everyone said the same thing, and three, build up this country with infrastructure, housing and more. And there are different paths, maybe to different infrastructure projects. We don't all agree, maybe on exactly the same ones, but I think there is a real opportunity to put some partisan politics aside and to say, where do we agree, and let's get as much done together. I don't think that lasts. The closer you get to an election that all falls away, but we've got a six plus month runway of collaboration, I think, at least in a pretty positive way.

50:47  
Isn't it weird that the winning like Song of Martin honeys campaign is a band also from our high school?

50:57  
I know, I know this is I was literally it's so bizarre. I had Pat Gillet message me, going like, Hey, am I going to see you on election night? It'll be great to see you. We're in Ottawa plane for the Prime Minister. I was like, ah, Pat I won't I won't see you. But give Carney my best.

51:16  
So the back story for everyone listening is that there is a band called down with Webster that had, you know, a Canadian, like pop star moment, and then kind of all went their separate ways, and then came back together fairly recently, and Mark Carney chose their single time to win as, like his, you know, one of his on stage, kind of Big songs. So when he, when he won, the band went to Ottawa and they performed at his party. And I was like, wait a minute, not the band that also played at the beaches Jazz Fest and, like our high school, like dances and stuff and

51:53  
and won, like the core group, like Pat and Tyler and cam and crew, like they, they won the Malvern Battle of the Bands. It's a very small world, as I say in the east end of Toronto, it is.

52:08  
It really

52:09  
is. Now thanks

52:10  
for your service. Nathaniel, thanks for all you do for animals. We'll be waiting with bated breath to see what you will be doing with this new formed Liberal government, and I hope that, I hope that you enjoy yourself. I hope that at the end of the day, sometimes it's fun, and that you work with great colleagues and and I hope that you are friends with some of the people from across the aisle, that you guys don't sneer at each other when you're going from room to room, going why I audit?

52:36  
I do have good relationships with folks across the aisle. I was sending notes to some of them to congratulate them on their wins. It is a weird election, because some of my colleagues lost that I've served with Since 2015 so I have to send notes as well. And it's, it's a challenging time. People put a lot of their heart and soul into this stuff. And yeah, when they lose a close one in particular, it's really tough, but, but you know what is the hardest thing in politics is you build these relationships. In some cases, I've been, you know, people's birthday parties from across the aisle. And then I've also had moments, though, where, despite the relationship, you know, partisan politics has intervened, and they've like, then come at you in a kind of a personal way, and you kind of go, like, What? What? Like, don't. Shouldn't we be better, better than that? Do we do we really do this to one another once we've built that kind of rapport and relationship. So partisan politics can be really frustrating in that way is that, you know, sometimes getting ahead, or, you know, the big L liberal team or the big C consumer team comes before decency doesn't

53:33  
make any sense. And I don't think the average person really fully understands how things work. And I heard a great story from shameless. Al is a friend of ours that we've had on the show. And she said that, basically, the guy that a neighbor of hers was is very conservative, was very outspoken. Al was very much a cheerleader for Mark Carney and the liberal she's got like, 1,000,002 followers on Tik Tok, anyway, long story short, he was voting conservative, and his wife and him were on very different ends of the pool. She was very liberal, and they went into to vote, of course, at their little community center, whatever. And He came out, and he was very confused, and he said to her, I didn't see Pierre poilievre name on the ballot, like he really didn't understand that he was voting for. So it's just a real it's sad, because it's a reflection on not understanding how a system works, that he went in there so he didn't, I don't know if he marked anything. He went in and came out, because he just was baffled, because he didn't understand where he said this. Fun things, rigged. Dada, dada, whatever. So it's little things like that that always blow my mind of what people's expectations are and how much they don't know about Yeah, and we have

54:49  
to navigate What's that to make sure that people don't feel that it is rigged. I mean, like that idea of building trust is kind of everything, even if you don't like the result, people trust in the result, even if you don't like. Result, you trust that there are institutions that will serve Canadians interest beyond any partisan interest, over a very long period of time. And so I do worry sometimes when people either misunderstand or information is provided to them that is completely incorrect, and then over time, it like it just wears on trust, and people you know, either don't vote at times after after a while, or and they just throw up their hands, or in some cases, that they vote for, you know, and you know, you see the rise in some cases of the PPC, or you see, you know, in the United States, obviously, they've kind of taken over the Republican Party. But you see a real strangeness and nastiness all at the same time, because people have become disenfranchised and frustrated and just lost trust and politics?

55:42  
No, absolutely. Well, here's to guys like you bringing some Sense and Sensibility to this entire thing. We thank you very much for doing everything that you do and being away from your family and all the hard work that you put into it. Thanks for being with us today. Nathaniel Erskine Smith has been our guest today. He's an old pal of of Caitlin's, and it is a small world. Well,

56:02  
thank you. And you should know that the only I've recorded maybe over 100 podcasts with our podcast on Commons, and the only one my wife has listened to, I guarantee, is when is when you join me?

56:16  
Well, I like your wife more and more, like your

56:19  
mother, she's going to your show. I don't know when it is, sometime in June. Well, you're playing some somewhere, sometime, I don't know, but my wife will be there.

56:26  
I'm at Massey Hall. Well, listen, I have your contact information in my phone, and I would love to say hello to your wife. I don't have all the MPs contact information my phone, but I do have Nathaniel's look after yourself. We'll be watching for you. Thanks.

56:41  
Jen, nice to see you. Caitlin, you too. Say hi to your dad. I definitely

56:52  
will. Well, that was a great conversation. Nathaniel is a fantastic fellow, and we commend his efforts to be a public person, because he's got a lot of work, a lot of digging in to do in the next few years, and we'll be cheering you on. Nathaniel, we do have some time left, thankfully for some voice notes that you guys were very kind enough to leave. So Sarah, if you want to spend a few of those, let's see what people have to say.

57:17  
Hi. It's Jan Arden, and I just want to say that I love you guys so much. I love you. Caitlin, I love you, Sarah, I think you guys are just freaking great. There's just something about you that's so so like fairy dust and magical unicorns and bunnies and gold coins at the end of a rainbow, and, like really good vegan ice cream and a magical, I don't know, I just, I can't even explain it anyway. Love you guys.

57:58  
This is her way of checking to make sure that I'm actually

58:00  
checking the voice notes, that it was working and functioning for everybody and ran out

58:06  
of superlatives at the end and talking about vegan ice cream. I

58:10  
care about these young women. I care about our show. I care about quality control, so I'm always here for it. Okay? Another one

58:16  
we have. We have. Here we go. Greetings,

58:18  
Canadians. This is, young mayor in the Midwest, United States. I'm sitting here with my beautiful and wonderful sisters. We decided we would call and say congratulations to Canada for electing a president that apparently is committed to Canada, unlike the one we have who announced yesterday that he's now running not only the United States but the world. So I we hope that yours is a lot more sensible than than this one. We want to encourage those who did not vote for him to please try to work together. Don't get too invested in divisiveness, because honestly, when you do, you end up with Donald Trump. So just try to be united. And please stay Canadians. You don't need to join anything to become Americans, not because we don't like you, because we do like you. So congratulations. I hope you're all happy about Mr. Carney. We don't really know a lot about them. We know that there are some Albertans who think they want to be in the United States. They don't be. Please talk to them. Go Canada. Thank

59:36  
you for that call. Yes, our prime minister has got a lot of work to do, like we said, we will revisit this conversation a year from now, and I really hope that that divide has lessened and that we are reaching across the aisles and working together to get legislation passed. But it's a really optimistic time, and you ain't gonna see me going, No, no, no, no. I mean, no, yeah. I. Just, I can only imagine the depth of people's disappointment, because I know how I would feel, so I really do I get it. So anyway, on,

1:00:09  
okay, we got one more. Hi

1:00:12  
Jan Caitlin and Sarah. This is Sandra from Ottawa. I just wanted to call and make a comment on something that Jan gave her opinion on a few months back, and it has been on my mind ever since, and did not settle well with me, not calling to complain or anything, but just something for you to consider when you are making comments and opinions. You mentioned that a lot of people, when tick tock went off the air for a day, and a lot of people shouldn't be relying on likes and people liking their Instagrams and their their following videos and etc, because something like that happens. But I just found it a little hypocritical, because I mean your podcast. I mean, if you didn't get the people to listen to your podcast, I mean, it's the same kind of a business. A lot of these people spend hours and hours perfecting their craft, or whatever they're doing, or their dance or their recipes or whatever. And they do spend a lot of time, and they get the followers, so then they get paid for that. And I do see it as being a career for a lot of people, and a great way for people to own their own business and be independent. And I think it's not really any different than what you're doing, especially with your podcast. And now you're charging people to listen to your podcast, and the only chance, whereas I don't know of anybody else who charges to listen to a podcast, they usually get supported by their advertising. And I listen to a lot of podcasts, but yours is the only one that does that, and I found it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And, you know, we have to pay to get the full podcast, I found that I wanted to stop listening, although I haven't, because, well,

1:02:07  
I'm glad to hear that. Well, I think she just ran out of a little bit of room. I just want to address a couple of things, many, many, many times on this show, like too many times to count I've spoken about,

1:02:18  
please enjoy this tangent. When

1:02:21  
I talk about monetizing, this is sort of where my thought process goes. And then we'll address the second part of this. When I see young women on Tiktok or young men, these young people are extremely reliant on that hitting of a like button to measure their worth. And perhaps my use of monetizing, I used it in a much broader sense, as opposed to just a financial gain. And I get that, and that's what I was speaking to, is that when your base how much you like yourself or what your self worth is, based on whether you have 500 followers or 25,000 followers, kids are hurting themselves. They're depressed, COVID, anxiety, it really is, and that's what I was speaking to. So I'm a little surprised at the other end of this, and then I'm going to hand it over to to the girls. But we, we do not charge for our podcast. That they actually

1:03:17  
have two free episodes a week, two. Yeah, we have two episodes a week.

1:03:21  
We have something called recall, which is revisiting one of our 200 plus episodes that we've done over the last four or five years. What people are paying for. Obviously, we do appreciate the support very much on Patreon, but it's bonus material, and it has no effect on you enjoying the podcast that you're listening to right now, or the recall podcast. Those are entirely free. We would never ask you to pay anything. We do rely on advertisers, and you know, we're always trying to grow our listenership. But even having said that, with the amount of people that listen to our podcast, I do not measure my worth by how many people, or how many Patreon people? That was the angle I took. I'm gonna hand it over to you, Caitlin.

1:04:06  
I just feel a little bit offended that someone who has never listened to Patreon and says they're not complaining, but are very clearly complaining, is leaving us a voice note about this, and also claims to understand the scope of the entire podcast industry, which we're a part of. So like, The New York Times has their content behind a paywall, a podcast that I love called Search Engine does a regular episode, but they do paid Patreon like, having a regular episode, and then a paid Patreon episode is very, very normal. So I just think it's quite regular. It is really regular. So if you're not in the business of podcasting, like, don't try to make it sound as though we're doing something that's unusual when I don't really think you understand the scope of

1:04:44  
things. And I would also just add to that, from the industry perspective of social media, you know, there's people with pay walls on their social media channel subscriptions as well. And yeah, so you're right in that it is not, it's not very different in that any creator may have a pay. All for something bonus. So I

1:05:02  
didn't I didn't mean, get the way it sounded. My concern was people measuring their self worth, self worth on how many followers they have. So I need to be more careful about the languages I use. I appreciate your call, and I apologize for making it seem a little more nefarious than I had intended, and we appreciate any kind of feedback. We're certainly not above criticism or any of those things. There's a dog licking my toes,

1:05:34  
and I want to just remind you, too, that there are exclusives in our Patreon, one we should definitely mention right now, because we're coming to the book big review, which was the Two Spirit journey. And we've got details in Patreon and on our socials, you do have to be part of the Jan's book bag to have this exclusive meet on zoom that we do once a month, which is Jen taking time out of her evening just to chat books and being an author, and all the wonderful stuff writers world. And

1:06:01  
this book was wild. This Two Spirit journey for me was not at all what I thought. That's all I'm gonna say about it. I'll save it for the book bag. But it was a very good choice by Sarah, and next week, I'm gonna give you my newest choice, because it's my turn again. Oh,

1:06:13  
it is your turn. So Sandra, I would invite you to maybe, just, maybe just check it out for a month and see if we can convince you otherwise. And we totally get it if that's not something you're gonna subscribe to all year, but we'd love to have you with us and try it out. And yeah, we'll be meeting for the book bag Tuesday, May 6, 8pm eastern next week, 6pm jst, that's Jan standard time details in the show notes or on our socials for next week. Thanks again

1:06:42  
for listening to the Jan Arden podcast and show you can hit subscribe. So we just pop into your mailbox every week, week after week. You don't even have to go searching, but we appreciate you more than you know. Tell your friends about Patreon. Come and follow us for five bucks a month or $7 a month if you want to be part of the book bag. Yes. Shameless self promotion. Caitlin green, Sarah Burke, as always, you guys are spectacular, and I adore you, but you heard the voicemail from me to you this week. Thanks. We'll see you next week. Folks, don't forget to tune in on Wednesdays for our recall episode. Who knows who's it's going to be this week? I think we probably already do know, but we'll see you next time. Thanks for coming along. Totally. Do you

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