Kate Robson & Sarah Polley: Something To Hold Onto

Jann Arden  0:08  
Gracious. Good afternoon, everybody. jann Arden, here I am, back in the land of Canadian Yes, I am. You guys are looking perplexed. I can call it whatever I want. Listen, we have so much coming up on today's show. I'm going to get right to it. We're definitely definitely going to be discussing the shocking passing of Catherine O'Hara Caitlin's going to update us on what's going on in the world and on the internet, on the scroll, the girls are in very frosty Ontario, in their respective homes. No, no, Sarah, you're not where are you?

Caitlin Green  0:40  
She's in Ontario, but she's not in her home.

Sarah Burke  0:42  
I'm in a frostier place than usual. I'm in wireton, Ontario, and we are recording this on Groundhog Day. I saw the festivities this morning. I'll tell you guys about

Jann Arden  0:51  
it after okay. And Caitlin, you are in your respective home.

Caitlin Green  0:54  
I am in my respective home. I can see by the brick wall behind me, I'm at home. It is frigid here. I'm really jealous, Sarah, that you got to see wired and Willie in the flesh, or in the fur, as it were, because that's something I feel like in my past life. In radio every time it was Groundhog Day, people were, like, obsessed with following this story.

Sarah Burke  1:11  
Have you heard of wired and Willie? June?

Jann Arden  1:13  
No famous groundhog okay? One of my favorite movies of all time is Bill Murray and Andy McDowell and Groundhog Day. It's just a classic, if it comes on, no matter where it is, halfway through, all the way almost to the end, I sit and I watch it.

Sarah Burke  1:27  
70th anniversary of them doing this entire festival in this little small town. They had hockey games. They had face painting for the kids, stuffed animals. Everyone was getting little groundhog stuffed animals. It was such a thing. And they chant, like, wake up, Willie. Like a full morning of things. We woke up at the crack of dawn. There were fireworks right in front of Dan's place here. That's so crazy. You got

Jann Arden  1:52  
to wonder who started that. I'm sure it's on the World Wide Web, but it's an interesting concept to you know if a groundhog sees his shadow, or if he doesn't see a shadow. So it's all of course, ladies and gentlemen, contingent on the angle of the sun and where the groundhog appears.

Sarah Burke  2:07  
I actually looked up the history. It started because one man was waiting for a buddy to get there. They made a joke about them waiting to hear about the weather prediction, and it stuck this guy, Mac McKenzie, local resident, 1956 now, you know, I

Caitlin Green  2:20  
just like that. Canada has our own Punxsutawney. Phil, yeah. Good for us, very.

Jann Arden  2:24  
Good for us. We have a lot of our own stuff here. Aren't aware we invented basketball, for God's sakes

Sarah Burke  2:30  
basketball? Does Calgary have one?

Jann Arden  2:33  
Um, you know, I'm not aware. I mean, I know the Calgary Stampede is sort of synonymous with this area, as far as

Caitlin Green  2:41  
Balzac Billy. Stop. Can you spell that for me, please?

Sarah Burke  2:45  
B, a, l, Z, A, C, Balzac Billy, and he's about 15 to 20 minutes from downtown Calgary. In Balzac, Alberta, okay?

Caitlin Green  2:53  
And in Nova Scotia, it's Shubenacadie Sam, so

Sarah Burke  2:57  
Jan's like, Guys, this is not the exciting things I wanted to talk about on the podcast.

Jann Arden  3:02  
You know what? It's just exactly what we need. We are, once again, in the middle of a shit storm of, you know, bad news, the Epstein files, Trump being an asshole. Things just getting more complicated. Ice is doing its fuckery, you know, all through the United States, and there's just a lot of lying going on. People are feeling pressured. Listen, I just came back from Iceland, as you know, and they are freaked out there. There's a lot of anxiety in Iceland and Greenland, and it breaks my heart. This is a country that has 400,000 people Max in Iceland, they are a water thermal loving, nature loving people that, you know, eat a lot of fish and raise sheep and have an amazing culture, a language that's 1000 years old, and now they're dealing with this shit show. And I just know from like thortis Mum and Dad are in their, you know, mid 70s, and they are not doing great with what's going on. So groundhogs, bring it on. I am so up to talking about anything trivial, and it's interesting. Our guests today, we are going to be welcoming Kate Robson, and she is a psychotherapist, an NICU Family Support Specialist, and the author of a beautiful, brand new book called something to hold on to, and don't we just need that right now. And joining Kate is a friend of mine. Actually, we became friends in 2025 you know, the internet is a magical thing, and sometimes people connect that way. I have known of Sarah Pauley for many, many years. Of course, road to Avonlea put her on the map. And fast forward, Sarah Pauley is someone who won an Academy Award women talking, yeah for women talking. And Sarah Polly wrote an amazing introduction to Kate's book, and they're going to be in the second half of the show.

Caitlin Green  4:53  
I feel like I just have had a chance to go through this book fairly recently, and I think about all the visualization exercises she includes. And a lot of it is like CBT therapy. And I'm like, this is very useful, obviously, when we're in, like, the winter months, and everyone's feeling a little bit more blue in Canada. But man, if you're overwhelmed by the news cycle, the constant news cycle slog that we're stuck in, it's a nice way to give yourself a little mental break, and it's practical. It's also really short, like it's really easy to read. It's like a mental health handbook more than anything else.

Jann Arden  5:22  
And for those of you who don't know what NICU is, because there's a lot of acronyms out there, it is a neonatal intensive care unit. So it's for preemies, mostly. And thortis had preemie twins, so she had tiny little peanut people that were like the size of a pop can anyway. We're looking forward to having that conversation, so please, please stick around for that. But right now, Caitlin, we're going to throw it over to you. What are you guys up to this week? Like, what's been going on and what's what's good and bad in your world?

Caitlin Green  5:52  
Well, I was in Collingwood again for the weekend. Collingwood is my new Eastern Townships, apparently. So we were there for the weekend, and it was such a nice break, because will stayed behind this weekend. And so it was just a mom and dad with friends trip. And it was really, really nice to kind of like, get out and just sort of have some time with pals and have some laws and, like, go check out some of the restaurants and breweries and everything that they have there. So it was, it was very, very enjoyable. I will say interesting thing that I don't want to say, like, derailed the weekend. It didn't but I was surprised at how much it came up and how much time this took up. When it was announced that Catherine O'Hara had passed. Yes, it happened while I was out having a meal, I think that it came through on a bunch of different, like, people's phones that I was with, and everyone collectively, was like, Oh, and you could look around the restaurant as everyone kind of like, started having that same conversation. Man, she was beloved like we may not. We knew that. But I think to see so many people talk about how much her work touched their life, and people who had worked with her firsthand, including Sarah Pauley, who will be on the show later, with us, they work together in the studio, the most recent season of the studio, of course, that's Seth rogen's project and and they were great together. And she shared a really wonderful tribute to Catherine O'Hara as well.

Sarah Burke  7:08  
That happened, like, right, while we were producing last week's show, and I was sitting there, like, should I call jann and let her rant and put it in last week's show? Because I know that you were pretty upset about it, too.

Jann Arden  7:18  
Yeah, it's, it's hard when you lose somebody when they're young, like that, like she was 71 years old, and I don't think we had sort of a lead up to any kind of an illness. It wasn't like, you know, the last 18 months, we've been watching her go through cancer treatments, or that she made any kind of health announcements. I think from what I have sort of gleaned from different news outlets, and I think it's legitimate, is that she had a heart episode, something to do with her cardiovascular that's all I've heard. And I have no confirmation on that. I've just read it in different that she had phoned an ambulance, that she was still, you know, able to call an ambulance, and I think that she was there with her husband, her partner, and, yeah, just just horrible. So I think when it's shocking like that interesting. I was able to go on CBC last night with Ian Hannah mansing. Sadly, I just did this with Jane Goodall two and a half months ago. I mean, I'm very pleased to be able to speak just collectively on behalf of millions of Canadians. I met Catherine twice under really kind of funny circumstances. 2003 I was at the giant SARS Rolling Stones concert, and I was asked to sing the national anthem. And I just thought, I can't think of a worse time to sing the national anthem. But backstage, Mary Margaret O'Hara, her sister, who's a gifted a critically acclaimed singer songwriter. She's brilliant. Miss America is a record that I just played to the ends of time when it first came out. And of course, Catherine O'Hara was there, and Catherine had our cowboy hat on, and she and her sister came lollygagging up to me and asked if we could sing the national anthem together. And so a really random moment of me singing Oh Canada with Mary Margaret and Catherine O'Hara and my manager at the time, Nikki Shibo, happened to snap this picture. She sent it to me afterwards. So there was that moment, and then fast forward to the CSA awards. I just happened to be kind of standing in proximity to Catherine O'Hara. We had certainly nodded and said, Hello, hey, and she was getting her picture taken with someone, and she tapped me on the shoulder and said, Can you hold my drink? Can you hold my drink? And which I'm like, God, I'll hold anything you want. I'll hold all your worries and troubles if you want me to. And so she I held her drink, and then she snapped the picture and forgot about her drink. So I, I just stood there for quite some time with the drink, and Catherine never came back for it. So I spoke to that a little bit with Ian, and just echoed the sentiments of, like I said, millions of Canadians who grew up with SCTV. Oh, my shit in hell. Did I laugh at that woman and her Brooke Shields impressions, her, her Catherine. Catherine O'Hara, of course, yeah, Home Alone and Beetlejuice and these. Huge movies. And like you said, the studio recently, and she was in The Last of Us, she's been, you know, doing some serious roles. And anyway, I'm just bummed out.

Caitlin Green  10:09  
It was really shocking, because she still felt very top of her game because of the runaway success of shits Creek, and because that was rumored to be coming back in some way, shape or form. And I just think people were so, so surprised. And the words of just professional and personal adoration from everyone who had worked with her, I'm not ashamed to admit that Macaulay culkins Post fully made me sob because he addressed her as Hey Mama, or mama simply, I think, at the beginning of his post about her, because obviously she played his mom and home alone. And I also thought about the nature of her career, being that you know, you're someone who's in a lot of kind of cozy, re watchable content, and if you are an actress who's in something like home alone, a movie that generation after generation watches every single year, multiple times in a row, maybe at Christmas. Yeah, this is such a loss, and I was thinking about how Christmas 2026 will feel when Home Alone comes on, especially when you see Catherine O'Hara share a screen with John Candy. You're just I saw someone else post that the two of them are probably up in heaven in the back of a rental truck playing polka. And it was really just so it's such a special place to hold in everyone's heart. And it's funny because it also made me wonder, you know, yes, of course, the really dramatic award winning actors of the world, they are so talented and so established, but I don't know that you necessarily re watch dramas in the same way that you re watch cozy comfort viewing like shits Creek, or like Home Alone or or like so many of the things she was in. I mean, her David guest work when she was in a mighty wind and Best in Show, like the ability to re watch those things over and over again, really means that this person becomes timeless. And I feel like that is sort of what Catherine O'Hara had

Sarah Burke  11:53  
talk about legacy too, right? Like she is one of those Canadian women who puts Canadian entertainment on the map right and has for so many years?

Jann Arden  12:02  
Yeah, well, and I love that there's just this consensus right across the board of how kind she was, how supportive she was, how great she was to work with. And I'll tell you what that is, a real litmus test to how people make their way through the world. There's a lot of people, and I'll just use Ellen DeGeneres as an example of, you know, someone who legitimately fell from grace because of the hundreds of comments that they got that this woman was not at all what she appeared to be. So I'm just saying you don't get away with that kind of behavior. And Catherine, I haven't heard one disparaging story ever, ever, never, ever about her that is something to be so proud of, that she supported so many people, but yeah, it's a loss for Canada, but wow, she will be remembered 1000 years from now. I mean, that people are going to be watching her doing. Brooke Shields, so funny, just it makes me smile thinking about the shit that she got up to SCTV in particular. Lola Hetherington, all the singing She did, like, for someone that said she was not a singer, she's got a lot of stuff on Spotify. Go look. I think she sang in on all those Christopher Guest films. She was

Caitlin Green  13:09  
saying she did, yeah, and she was also a really good physical comedian too. Like, I remember in Best in Show, there's a really amazing scene that was making the rounds on social all weekend where she falls over, like, she trips and falls over multiple times. So yeah, I'm quite sad about this one. I really feel for her family too. 71 is like way too young, in my opinion.

Sarah Burke  13:28  
Well, guys, I can cheer you up. I have some good news. If you Yes, good news. It Up. Caitlin brought this to us. I can't take credit for it, but our book club is going to be a hit this year. You want to know why?

Caitlin Green  13:39  
Because 2026 is being dubbed the year of hobbies, and the top hobby on the list is the top hobby is reading. The number one thing people say they want to get into more is reading. And I think this is it's something you hear people say a lot, and they want to do it because they know how good it makes them feel. And I think also, we're living in an increasingly digital world, and things that are analog are people are looking for them. And so I think just the feeling of picking up a book, people know in their scroll addicted heart that they would be well advised to pick up a book.

Jann Arden  14:11  
I love reading. Yeah, he'll stop. I absolutely love reading. And I got a whole bunch of books at Christmas. Nigel gave me a bunch of history stuff. And, you know, mud larking. I got some mud larking books and and learning about English history through the eyes

Sarah Burke  14:27  
on this list,

Caitlin Green  14:29  
it's shockingly, Sarah didn't make the list. But it should, okay, well,

Jann Arden  14:33  
it should have made the list, because mud larking for for those of you who really want to know, it's when the tide goes out, anywhere, like in the Thames, I will say that like that huge, beautiful river that runs through London Bridge, the tide goes out, you have to get a permit that are very difficult to get. And when the tide goes out, you can go in there with your sticks and your rubber boots, and you can scrape around, you find all kinds of shit you find, like stuff from fucking 500 years ago, coins. And you'd think it. It's all gone now, because people have been doing this for 200 years along that those banks, but there's stuff that gets washed in all the time, and more. Anyway, mud larking should be on that list. Okay, Caitlin,

Sarah Burke  15:11  
a couple other things on the list. One

Caitlin Green  15:13  
was learning a new language, which I really enjoy, and I know so many people who've tried out Duolingo. So this tracks. I'm going to need to do this because will has been enrolled in French immersion for a JK, and so I feel as though he will quickly surpass my French abilities. So I'm gonna have to brush up on my French. Another one that I really liked is crocheting. I've seen a lot of people talk about crocheting. And then there's also knitting, knitting, because that's a category that's been popping up on Instagram, and Tiktok because maybe it's because we're in a financial binder. People just want to relax, but they are sharing patterns they've made to design these really beautiful blankets and sweaters and scarves, and they've gotten quite good at it, and then you have these beautiful handmade scarves and sweaters that you can keep for yourself or give to family. And I like this idea. My dad's my dad's fiance is a crocheter, and she crochets stuffed animals, but she also crochets, I mean, just about everything under the sun. And she really likes it. I think it's quite relaxing for her, and it's nice to have a hobby that results in something physically being made, too.

Sarah Burke  16:12  
You know, all these other things on the list. There's like, a theme here. It's like stuff you would find at a cottage, like card games, board games. Like, was puzzles on there.

Caitlin Green  16:21  
Yeah, jigsaw puzzles was on here. Drawing cross. You know what I played

Sarah Burke  16:25  
this weekend with Dan's kids for the first time in, I don't know how many years, Go fish. I played Go fish. Super fun. Love A Go fish. Moment. I like

Jann Arden  16:34  
Go fish. Well, hobbies can be anything. I think if you want to learn how to make really good Matcha Tea. A friend of mine is actually taking a, it's a three week night class, because she wants to have the brush with the whiskey, Japanese all the tea making. And I think it's like $80 at a community college or something, and she's really excited about it. So that would be a hobby. I don't think it would make the list. Yeah, I love reading. I think bird watching is definitely a hobby. I love feeding the birds and what and bird watching is growing exponentially with young people. They are out there marking shit off their list, and they have like, 200 birds that they want to identify in, like Massachusetts or something, and they're out there, like I found the speckled warbler, and it's a big deal. They have all these Reddit like, conversations about who's finding what birds wear and and I'm telling you, this is 18 year old people.

Caitlin Green  17:31  
Yeah, my friend's husband has been into bird watching for years, and he's a bit of an outdoorsy guy, so he already loves camping and being outside, and then he picked up bird watching. And he's on all these bird watching Facebook groups and like members only groups in Toronto. So if somebody in this group sees a rare bird in High Park or a crazy owl or a hawk or whatever, they all tell each other, put up an alert, and my friend will say, Oh, I have to go with my husband right now. We're gonna go try to hunt down this owl in High Park, and it's it's really cute, because I also think it helps you kind of stay grounded a little bit in nature, and not just like pulled into the internet of it all the time. You can kind of appreciate just the beauty of seeing a really cool bird. It's so wholesome. I think it's great.

Jann Arden  18:15  
And Bird song is at some frequency depending on the bird that regulates your immune system. So you are doing really good things for yourself, like, if you find yourself completely out of whack by the end of every day, birdsong really helps your whole body kind of reset itself.

Sarah Burke  18:33  
I feel like everything on that list would if you think about how relaxing all those like yoga, gardening, unless it's like, 40 degrees, yeah, but because then you're like, Oh, the heart is going, Yeah, but, like, puzzles, right? Like all that, it's probably like, lowering your cortisol, yeah?

Caitlin Green  18:52  
It's all stuff that's designed to, sort of like, soothe your nervous system.

Sarah Burke  18:55  
Tell us what hobby you're picking up this year. Send us a voice note or something.

Caitlin Green  18:59  
Please do Yeah, or recommend a hobby you already have, like we might have missed your hobby if we if we missed it, if it wasn't mud larking or ceremonial matcha, then tell us what you're doing.

Sarah Burke  19:10  
Maybe we're going mud larking after the thrift store. Just saying, just saying, not know,

Jann Arden  19:15  
in the in the bachelorette party. So if I recall what I said was, we rent an RV, we make a weekend trip of it. We get the thrifted outfits. I pick for you, you pick for Sarah, we get the outfits. And then do we go to a fancy restaurant? Is that what we're doing? We're doing doing something quite nice, or is it just like a diner? What are we doing?

Sarah Burke  19:38  
You're the bride. You get to tell us what you want to do. Am I supposed to throw my own thing? Is that what's happening?

Caitlin Green  19:44  
I think I would go somewhere, somewhere that has to be like, at least at the same standard of dining out as, say, the keg. Do you know what I mean?

Jann Arden  19:51  
Blackfoot truck stop right here in Calgary. All right, okay, to park the RV. We have a place to park the RV in. Just checking are there. We they always have, like, a soup. That's, like a tomato soup, okay? And there's, there's side salads. There's things that we could find. There's stuff you guys could go bonkers. You guys could probably have the club sandwiches and stuff like that. Although you guys don't eat a lot of meat either. I can't remember the last time you guys said you had a steak somewhere. Actually had a steak, because

Sarah Burke  20:17  
I do, I mean, I do eat meat, but, but, yeah, especially since it was January, Jen used to make us do like, the vegan challenge for January Veganuary. Thank you. Yes, the one. And I did eat a lot of tofu last month.

Caitlin Green  20:29  
I still do like, I actually, I'm getting dinner set up for tonight, and I'm doing a vegan chickpea and sweet potato curry with some spinach. It's really, really good. And I so I do is on the list too. Oh, cooking is on the list. I saw that cooking is great again, something that you actually pick up a hobby and you have something to show for it. So I do the occasional meat meal still, but I do try, for a variety of reasons, health and, you know, saving money and all that stuff. I'll try to do a lot of like vegan kind of stews and soups. It's the perfect time of year for it. So maybe we'll, maybe we'll stick with like the vegan options at the truck store.

Jann Arden  21:03  
Can we talk about age specific nightclubs? I love this story. I have not been into a nightclub for quite some time. Is it not all ages? What happened is it? Are they now like targeting people like 40 to 60 or 60 to 90, or what? What's happening? What does this mean?

Caitlin Green  21:21  
What's going on out there? There is a bar that is going to be no one allowed over the age of 40. It's a bar in Tokyo, and so bouncers at the door are only allowing people in between the ages of 20 and 39 so they said, on any given night now, about 90% of patrons are in their 20s, so it's created this like younger club scene for them. So they don't want to exclude older guests, but they said they want to keep the vibe consistent, and that when older people come in, this I thought was mean, and I also felt like I could say just ageist, but they said when older patrons come in, noise complaints tend to go up, so narrowing the age range helps create a space where the regulars can relax and be as loud as they Want,

Sarah Burke  21:59  
because the millennials are like, let's go. And also because,

Caitlin Green  22:03  
like, I've encountered this in many places, at restaurants too, where all of a sudden I've hit an age where I'm like, I can't even hear my friends talk. And then I'm like, You know what, I shouldn't be here.

Sarah Burke  22:12  
God, like, there was, like, a little band playing at a restaurant I went to with some girlfriends for dinner, and we were all sitting there for honestly, 40 minutes being like, I can't hear you. Should we ask them to make the band stop like we were being such party poopers, but we see each other once every you know, six months, it's like, gotta hear you. Yeah.

Caitlin Green  22:30  
So I like this idea, and I thought I would want the same thing, only where no one can be under the age of 35 because I feel better about that. I would rather go to a place where I like, I'll walk into bars or clubs sometimes on the rare occasion that I go out at night, and if I feel like everyone there is 25 I'm like, I gotta go. This isn't for me. The playlist isn't gonna be for me. We went to a place after my karaoke birthday this year that when we walked in, all of us were like, Oh my God. We're way too old to be here. We have to get out. So I would just like to know where that equivalent older bar is that might play music I like at a real reasonable volume,

Sarah Burke  23:07  
and they make you go home at 930

Jann Arden  23:10  
at least midnight. I don't think I've ever gone anywhere and complained about the noise. Like, if I walk in someplace, I'm like, Well, this is what this is. So, yeah, I think it's a good idea. There was a place called the brass ring back in the day. So anyone who's from Calgary, you'd remember this. The brass ring, I'd say, was from 50 to 75 okay, it was synonymous with these older couples, and they would go dancing and stuff the brass ring. It was pretty funny. And I would, I mean, in my 20s, we would go in there just for a laugh with my girlfriends. Yeah, we would go in there and have, like, a quick drink and just look at all the old people. And now I'm the old person like so now I'm, I would have been the perfect age for the clientele at the brass ring. Please, if you'd like to sponsor us here at the show, feel free. Are you still going brass ring? Let us know. We send us a voicemail.

Sarah Burke  24:02  
We can have the RV stop by at the end of the night. Oh god, yeah.

Jann Arden  24:05  
We can go in with our thrifted outfits and have Manhattan good to Well, listen you guys. We have a big show ahead of us. This has been fun getting caught up. We are going to take a quick break right now. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Kate Robson and Sarah Pauley talking about her brand new book, which is called something to hold on to. We'll be right back after these short messages from our sponsors.

Jann Arden  24:35  
Well, welcome back as promised. We are going to be talking now with Kate Robson, an author, a psychotherapist and a NICU, a Family Support Specialist, with so many world events overwhelming us with complicated and very often dark news lately, what better time to have a psychotherapist on to help us all figure out how to get through this really fucking weird, strange thing? Song called life, and now she's the author of a brand new book called something to hold on to, and it's the kind of book you reach for when life feels overwhelming, and we can all relate to that. With her today is also her longtime friend. They have a 20 year friendship, Sarah Pauley, and in case you have been living under a rock, Sarah Pauley is a creative powerhouse. She's an Oscar winning screenwriter and director and actor and a best selling author, and her introduction is deeply personal, and she sets such an amazing, powerful tone for this book. So without any further ado, welcome Kate and Sarah. We're so glad

Unknown Speaker  25:34  
to have you here today. Oh my goodness, I'm so happy to be here.

Jann Arden  25:37  
It's a thrill. How does it feel Kate to have this book done wonderful.

Speaker 1  25:42  
It's wonderful because I've been working on it for so long, and I finally got brave enough to show it to somebody, and then they liked it, and it became a book, and now other people are reacting to it, and that feels really wonderful. I was hoping, I was hoping that it would have the impact that it seems to be having, and to see that coming true is a delight, and I feel very grateful and very lucky.

Jann Arden  26:04  
What pushed you to the edge of being an author of this book? There must have been something that happened that just went you know what I'm going to write this down? Is it because you were just giving life advice to so many people and so many friends that you saw kind of a trend happening with people that had a difficult time asking for help, like, what pushed you into the pages? So to speak? Well, I

Speaker 1  26:24  
love that question. Pushed you into the pages. That's amazing. I love books. You know, books were some of my first friends, and so the idea of writing a book is always something that I've held is that, oh, maybe, maybe someday I could do that. And then, as I worked in the NICU supporting families and in my career as a psychotherapist, these patterns kept showing up that we would very collaboratively, you know, very creatively, working with clients or working with families. We would come up with these images and these metaphors and and I could just see how they would help. They would help people make sense of what it was that they were experiencing. And so I just kind of started noting them and writing them down. And this is one of the reasons I'm so glad Sarah's here today, because it was in conversation with her and another dear friend named Jack, where I finally got brave enough, you know, because of the safety of that friendship, I got brave enough to say out loud, I have an idea, and I think I might want to write about it, and I'm so glad I took that Chance. I mean, it wasn't that much of a risk, because you can't imagine two more supportive people, but it was that moment that led to the book, that led to everything, right? And it's just, it's so amazing what can happen in the context of trusted relationship.

Jann Arden  27:35  
And the irony is, you're writing a book about, you know, kind of overcoming or getting through these tender moments in life, and yet it is a tender moment for you to embark on writing it. So it's kind of like this circular thing that none of us are exempt from feeling about having an idea and how people are going to embrace that, and none of us want to be rejected Absolutely. So it's funny, writing a book about that that helps people deal with that

Speaker 1  28:05  
well, in that, you know, growing up in rural Ontario, there was a really strong kind of, who do you think you are? Kind of idea sometimes, like, don't try, you know, don't try and stick out. The biggest insult was, You think you're so big, you know. So the idea of like, Well, who am I? Who am I to write a book? Who am I to try to do this? It felt really monumental. And then I realized a book is a conversation, and I have conversations all the time, and it's not, you know, I'm not trying to come in here with some sort of Sledgehammer of expertise. I'm just trying to connect with people and have a particular type of conversation and that I do feel I can do.

Jann Arden  28:43  
I want to talk to you about premature babies for a second, sure, and the experiences that you came out of in the NICU. I mean, you're dealing with parents on the front line of grief and sorrow constantly. I don't know if you know a lot about Caitlin green, but her and her husband, Kyle, went through like a catastrophic loss a few years ago, losing their son, Sam, and Caitlin has gone into great detail, and I'm going to let you speak to that Caitlin just about how supportive the people around her were in those moments. But what have those preemies provided you with? I don't want to speak so much about the parents and their experiences, but the little preemies themselves, what they've taught you, of these tiny humans, I mean, they're so fucking tenacious.

Speaker 1  29:26  
They are. They are, my goodness, they're so small and so tough. And there's the grams. Are 500 600 grams of people. Yeah, my oldest, she's now 20, and she's amazing. She was 500 grams when she was born, and her sister, yeah, teeny, teeny. And then her sister was, it was funny, because when she was born, she was three pounds and, and I was like, Oh, she's so big. And the nurses were like, what? But for me, a three pound baby was a whopper, you know, yeah, but yeah, so, so something that in the unit where I used. To work, they would have a quote from Dr Seuss in the wall. And a person's a person, no matter how small, right? And the idea was that we really wanted to treat these small people, you know, they're human beings, right? And even if they can't, well, they can speak to us. You know, they can speak to us in all kinds of ways, but we need to learn how to listen. But also, their personalities are there right away, right? Both of my kids, I knew who they were within 15 minutes, probably of them being born. So when you work with these people, and you see that they are people, and you see that they need love and touch and connection, it helps you understand a lot about them, and it also helps you understand a lot about what bigger people need. Because you see, oh, it's there from the very beginning.

Jann Arden  30:41  
Yeah, Caitlin, I want to throw it over to you, because I really want you to tell Kate a little bit about your journey through that. It's such an amazing thing that you overcame and are still dealing with to this day.

Caitlin Green  30:52  
But yeah, so, like So Kate, then you would be well versed in all of this, not only from like, your experience, but then, like, time in the NICU, we had such a great support system. So we had a full infant loss of our first son, but then I went on to have a subsequent pregnancy, and now we have a three and a half year old named Will so, you know, he's sort of the rainbow baby that everybody hopes for, but it's quite the journey along the way. And you know, like, grief is not linear. It pops up all the time. And thankfully, we had a ton of therapy. I mean, an inordinate my husband and I were in therapy. Like, that was our job, I think, for a moment in time amazing, which was great. And like, I'm so happy we had the professionals we did. So I think I was, I guess, better prepared. My toolkit, so to speak, was a little bit heavier when we had our son. So my mental health professionals had already been, like, working with me on a lot of the stuff that I'm seeing in your book, specifically, but it's something that I when I was in group therapy, there were couples and moms specifically who were like, being inundated with this forced positive messaging, especially if they had a subsequent pregnancy, or if they had twins and then they lost one twin, it was like they were always being given this like push towards positivity, which is really well intentioned, but not altogether helpful. So I think something that, like, I try to do, and something that I've been like, asked a lot, because prior to being with jann full time on the podcast, I was in morning radio on a radio station here in Toronto called CHM FM. And so my loss was very public. My subsequent pregnancy was very public. So I did have, like, a lot of people reach out to me, and they were constantly asking me for advice on how to speak to someone who was suffering with lots of issues around motherhood, whether that was loss or infertility. And I kind of like now I'm so happy that I have your book, because I'm just going to refer them to this book, because it is a very, very useful and practical toolkit that doesn't, to me, at least feel overwhelming, and it really breaks down something that I found very helpful, which was visualization and the metaphors you use in your book. Some of them I was going through in CBT therapy, like imagining your your thoughts that would pass through as cars, just stuff like that, that I felt like as a visual thinker, also myself, I really grabbed onto and felt like it was grounding for me in those moments. So I'm just thank you for writing the book and for physically creating something to hold on to for people, when you're going through these moments and there's so much grief in life, like it's not just because I, you know, lost our son, but people have all kinds of loss, and there is no like yardstick for this. You can lose a job, you can go through a divorce, or you can lose a parent, whatever that looks like for you. So I just think this is a really handy book, and thank you for writing it. Did you find when you were, you know, navigating being the mom of a premature child yourself, did you find any of these exercises helped you or, like, what was your experience with that? And then Sarah, I guess I would ask you the same thing, because you wrote the introduction, and it was a great personal introduction, saying that you had connected with with Kate especially, and she was helpful to you when you were going through a hard time. So like, how did these metaphors and visualizations work for you both?

Speaker 1  33:45  
I'll start by saying that when I was going through all of this with my with my children, that was long before I was a therapist, and I was white knuckling it, and I was terrified, and I think now I realize I was deeply anxious and I didn't get help because I was coping, I was showing up, I was doing what needed to be done, and I didn't realize, oh, this is what's going on inside, because I hadn't yet learned that what was going on inside mattered. And Caitlin, I do want to say, I'm so sorry. Oh, thank you. And I also want to say thank you for being so brave to share your story, because I know it helps people. Yeah, it does. And thank you so much for just bringing that in about that kind of toxic positivity that can be so harmful. Because I think especially in the infant loss community, or people who are dealing with miscarriage or infertility or, you know, really difficult moments, our grief and our pain sometimes makes us feel like pariahs. People don't want to listen. They want us to, you know, see the positive, and it's like, well, I'm trying. And also there is this grief. Also there is this really tough thing I'm dealing with. And can you love that too? Right? So I really, I really appreciate you saying that.

Jann Arden  34:57  
Thank you. Yes, I was going to just read a little. Book from Sarah, what you wrote in the intro, and it's the very last paragraph. Now, when I meet someone who is having a hard time, I am relieved to be able to hand them this book, which is akin to handing them 40 walks with Kate. This is, in my opinion, all we really need to survive. I mean, the whole The intro is, is three pages, and it's so amazing, but that really made me smile. It's like, Listen, I'm standing here in front of you, and I know you're having some trouble right now, but please take this book. Yes, because I don't know how to help you. Really, you just need to walk with Kate 40 times

Speaker 2  35:42  
so well. And the truth is, I have had that thought so many times over the years, because, you know, Kate's my best friend. And you know, when the shit hits the fan in my life, I go for a walk with Kate, and things get better. And so many times in my life when I've seen people really suffering, I've been like, I just wish Kate had the time to go for a walk with absolutely everyone, but that's I can't just offer up my friend, but when she wrote the book, I was like, Oh, now I have this thing that feels the same as getting all this amazing time with Kate, who really is, you know, the person I admire most in the world, and is the safest container and wisest spirit, and is not afraid of of the pain and suffering in people's lives, and does know how to hold it and let it be and not immediately jumping to make it better, although also some really, you know, wise bossy tips about how to make it better. And I do feel like for be, you know you were talking about Caitlin, is the idea of having these images to hold on to. It's like, the number of self help books I've read, and I'm a junkie, when it comes to self help books, they they can be amazing, and then they kind of drift away. And I can't remember what was so helpful while I was reading it. And with this, I just find like, I will suddenly remember, I'll be in the middle of, you know, a very difficult time, and remember the idea of, okay, what's my string of lights? And the idea of the string of lights where you're creating these little events of tiny little joys and tiny little things to look forward to in your calendar, or the ladder where you just need to come down one rung of your stress. And obviously, let Kate describe those, because she does it a lot better than I would. But I just find it's really easy to grab onto those when and when you're overwhelmed or when you're stressed, it's very hard to remember complex thoughts about what might be helpful, but an image I think we have access to even in the hardest moments. So that's what I find so extraordinary about this book, and it certainly shifted my life, because I do find when I'm overwhelmed, I just You can open to any chapter. You don't have to read it in a linear way, and it's so helpful.

Jann Arden  37:44  
How do you feel about being just a writer in general? Like, was it intimidating to go in obviously, you sit down at your computer, or whatever you're going to do, and you have to choose the words to say. And just in my small experience, it's so hard to sift through the massive amount of ideas that your brain is taking in. And I'm curious how you chose those images and how you were able to is it things that just hit constantly with your conversations with people like Sarah, with other friends like I would imagine that's an overwhelming task to distill it down.

Speaker 1  38:20  
Well, that's absolutely what I did. I thought about, you know, what's really resonating, what moment you float an image past somebody, what, what are they grabbing for? What's really, what seems to work and and I have, you know, I'm very lucky. My sister's a writer, and she writes historical fiction, and she's wonderful, and so she helped me in terms of developing it as a practice, you know, because sometimes you feel guilty about handing over some of your time to something that may or may not become a real thing, you know. And so, Jennifer, Jennifer Robson, Hi, Jen. She was Jen, she was, she was amazing, you know. And Sarah, you know, Sarah, you were so creative and and on every level, and a wonderful writer. And so it's you understanding that there is a pathway, right? And so if you give yourself the time, if you put your butt in the seat and honor the idea that you have with your time, something will happen. So I really tried to hold on to that as an idea to get myself started. And then, to be honest, I hope I don't sound like a jerk saying This it it just happened, right? Because I talk about this every day with people I really care about, with clients and friends. So it was there, and it actually felt amazing to put it onto paper. To be honest, it felt really good.

Jann Arden  39:32  
Oh, absolutely it's it's so gratifying to have that kind of information out in the world. I'm going to throw it over to Sarah Burke, because what I do all the time in these podcasts is I hog all the questions, and so I want to make sure that Sarah has, you know, an opportunity to talk to you, because we're all we've all got stuff that you know we want to say, and that's all the time you have Sarah Burke, no.

Sarah Burke  40:00  
I greatly admire, I mean, all of you, for putting your grief on the table and talking about all this stuff outright. And I guess, like one question, just because you know both Sarah and Kate, like you're coming from different creative backgrounds, and I'm wondering, what can you find in common between the way you would make film and the way you would write a book, and how those ideas sort of formulate before the project is complete.

Speaker 2  40:25  
One of the things that I was thinking of saying earlier, you know, when Kate was talking about the process of writing the book, is I remember Callie curry, who wrote Thelma and Louise. I remember hearing her at a writer's workshop, and I think it was before I'd ever written a screenplay. It was before I wrote my first short film. And I kept trying and then giving up, because I was like, It's crappy. I don't really know how to do this. How to do this. It's stupid, it's embarrassing. And I remember her saying to all these young writers, the people you admire most, feel as much like impostors as you do. They just do it anyway. Yeah, and that was a game changer for me. Of just like it is, as Kate said, a practice, and you just keep doing it, and the most talented among us are not always the people who are out there doing stuff. It's it's so much about resilience and being okay with looking at your terrible first draft and being ashamed of yourself and having the balls to keep going anyway. Some of the most talented people I've ever known have never published anything because they're waiting for something to be perfect the first time out. Yeah, and that's just, it's just about the grind, I think, yeah, absolutely.

Jann Arden  41:27  
I've got the worst songs in the world sitting on cassettes in my basement, and once

Unknown Speaker  41:35  
in a while, can we hear one right now, please.

Jann Arden  41:39  
I will. I will. I'm actually gonna send you one. I promise that I will. I'll go grab a random cassette. I went to Value Village. I'm sorry that I'm even telling the story, but I didn't have a cassette deck, and this was years ago, and I went to Value Village and I bought a cassette deck. It said, Yes, it does work. It was $5 and I brought it home, and I just took a cassette out of a box. There was really nothing marked on it. I couldn't read my fucking writing. I was probably hammered, and I put it in and I'm like, Oh God, I didn't tune the guitar. It was something about Karen Carpenter dying from starvation. And I'm not kidding you. Like trying to find rhymes for anorexia. I wish I was lying. I listened to it and I wrote it in earnest. I thought this is great. So yes, you did. Can I suggest that

Speaker 2  42:33  
the end of this podcast, in the spirit of what we're talking about, please go out. It doesn't have to be that song, but it has to be something terrible that you wrote, because it'll inspire all of your listeners.

Jann Arden  42:45  
Thank you. I will, I will send it to you. Thank you for that beautiful suggestion. Thank you. I think it is, it's difficult. And Kate, I would imagine that you read first drafts and and kind of second guessed yourself and thought, no, because the message is here. My mom used to always say to me, she said, Jan, you don't have to be a great writer to tell a great story. And that always encouraged me to not worry about being academic. And I'm wondering if those kinds of thoughts ever crossed your mind, from a psychiatric point of view, that you're telling these little vignettes and giving people these little rays of sunshine to put into their pockets, to stuff into their pockets so that they can get through a fucking another 10 minutes. Did you worry about the academic,

Sarah Burke  43:31  
literary part of it? The Literary, yeah. Well, just 100%

Speaker 1  43:36  
you know, that idea of, is this good enough? What would my colleagues think of it. Is it? Yeah, is it clinical enough? And then I did realize that, you know, there are, I love, those types of books. There are wonderful books out there that are very clinical and will talk about your amygdala and whatever else. And this was going to be something different. And I realized there's room for something different. It's okay that this is different, because I was writing a book that was for somebody very specific. It was for a version, maybe, of me when I was in my hardest moments, and I just, you know, I needed something that I could open and I could use right away. It's for other people that I've met along the way who needed something that they could use right away. And it's okay for it to be that, you know, one book can't be everything. So when I kind of unhooked from the idea that I had to be more clinical and I had to prove what I knew, it's not about me knowing anything right. It's about can I create something that will help somebody else feel heard and seen and safe? But those thoughts absolutely came up, and I want to say thanks again to Sarah, because you were so patient. Because I feel like, kind of like you were like, maybe, like the mother duck and I was the duckling wandering behind. Because I'd be sort of like, Hey, I wrote another thing. When you look at it and you were, you're very busy person. You were really gracious and kind about that. And without that, I don't know you, my sister, these people I really trust, trusted enough to share this really vulnerable stuff. With and you were always so kind about it. So it

Speaker 2  45:03  
really was selfish. It just calmed me right down. It's like, it calmed me right the hell down. And it's, you know, the audio book I highly recommend to people, and, oh, recently, just say it's like, as a way to wind down at the end of the day. And Kate weirdly sent me this like, clip of, what do you think of this clip of this clip of me doing the audio book, and it was like, Are you a professional audio book reader? Like you have some weird special skill that you've never mentioned the last 20 years, but literally just the most it's the most soothing, calming thing. So there was nothing generous about it. It just was so regulating to be inside this book and inside these images and with your voice, that's amazing.

Sarah Burke  45:39  
Can I ask one more question. Yes, Sarah, go, go, okay. Don't you find that there's a whole generation of people that are still so uncomfortable talking about this kind of stuff, right? I think about my parents, you know, and if I need to have a discussion about something, it's like, so uncomfortable. It'll probably take three weeks before we can come around to the conversation. I'm just like, please just come and talk to me. Sit beside me on the couch for a minute. It's not because they don't want to, but it's like they they just have never been taught to sit with it. It almost feels like and I just wonder, how would you suggest someone like digging into a book like this, who kind of stays away from talking about mental health or anything like that to begin with?

Speaker 1  46:15  
Well, it's been interesting because I have shared it with some friends of mine who are of that generation, and the feedback has been it melts my heart, in a way, because I do, I talk about that in the book that my mom, who was amazing, she was a fantastic mom. I loved her so much, and she did have that kind of buck up and move on mentality, like, don't waste time talking about feelings. And I understand that, you know, for her, that was sort of necessary, because she had a lot to do, and a lot of people are trying to get in her way, and so that's how she at that time in history and that time in her life, that's kind of how she had to be. So I have a lot of respect for that, and then I also just have this tenderness. I just really want them to know that what you think and feel is actually really important. You know, all those, all of that complicated stuff inside is beautiful. And so what I found is when you make space for people, and it is a little bit like you're kind of coaxing somebody, like, here's a treat kitty. Come on out. When they do have those conversations, they're incredible. And one thing that I find this is more with, I would say, friends, supposed to clients, but something that really helps is doing something where you're not looking at each other. You know, people talk about this with teenagers, they get in a car and drive, and that's when they're going to talk. And I think it helps with the with other people who aren't used to talking about their feelings. So go on a walk, get in a car, go on a drive, and that's when these amazing conversations can take place, because they're not feeling that intensity of the attention, and it just opens up space. And it's really beautiful. What comes out that

Jann Arden  47:45  
is a great, great suggestion, and so true, like, it's hard to sit in in kind of a quiet space across from someone and speak your

Sarah Burke  47:55  
truth, yeah, and they're watching my hair roll down, yeah?

Jann Arden  48:00  
I don't look at people when I sing. I don't look at them. I don't make eye contact with anybody. It's not I don't find it comfortable for myself. I it's just amazing that you brought that up, because I've never done it. I've been singing for, you know, 50 years, but I've never I don't do it. I find an exit sign, I find a place to point myself. Thanks for that. You kind of just let let me off the hook there. I always thought there was kind of something wrong with me that I didn't do, like a Jaja Gabor and sit on, sit on someone's lap and and sing to them, I just can't do it. Caitlin, I want to swing over to you for another question.

Caitlin Green  48:39  
Yeah, I think my other question too. And I'm just wondering if you guys have found this at least, is like, do you think that your female friendships in life specifically, have been particularly like grounding and psychologically helpful for you, because I feel like and maybe it's because of the proximity we have to motherhood, whether that is like actually becoming a mother, or being around women who become mothers or like the omnipresent you Know, will you or won't you become one, like all of that motherhood stuff, I think forces women to have a whole new dimension to their brain, and I think it makes them better at conveying feelings, because we have no choice. So I just wonder, I feel like you guys have such a great friendship, but do you find that that's the case for both of you and your female friendships? I mean, 100%

Speaker 2  49:19  
I remember someone recently said to me, a friend of mine who's in her 70s, said, I think I'm different from you, but because, because I didn't have kids and never got married. You know, for me, my female friendships are everything. And I was like, Yeah, me too. Like, I don't think that getting married and having kids changes that. I mean, I think that it's that's like mental health for me is like I if I isolated myself and said I didn't have time for those friendships in any way? Yeah, it would just be like having being able to process all of what happens and also tracking each other's lives like I love tracking. Yeah, you know where Kate was, you know, 13 years ago, and where she is now. And you know this idea that you have a witness who can go when you're like, I've never felt this before, and someone goes, actually, you did. It was six years ago in June, and he said basically the same thing about that person. So we can see a pattern here. And like those moments with female friends, I think that witnessing of each other's lives, and also having a it's almost like of our text thread with our friend Jack as, like, kind of like a barf bag of life and emotions. Like, Oh, someone catches your puke and, like, puts your hair back and strokes you a little. It's really helpful.

Jann Arden  50:36  
It is helpful those shared histories. They make it so much easier for us to make mistakes gloriously like and to own them, and to and to relish in in failure. Somehow, I do think that character is built from not getting it right. And I think just what you're doing is giving people, Kate, you know, just that permission to go. You're not supposed to be doing it right all the time, like you're just sorry. But if you think every all of your decisions are just going to be followed by a choir handing you a sandwich, it's just not going to happen.

Speaker 1  51:14  
I love that idea. I should write a book about that. A choir giving you a sandwich.

Jann Arden  51:20  
You got it right. I mean, I'd rather have a sandwich than a fucking trophy. Any day. They should give they should give people I don't want a plaque. Like my friend Ed charity said, You can't eat a plaque. How am I fucking supposed to eat a plaque? But you should be so proud of this book. And I just, I'm so glad that you guys had some time to talk with us today, and and we are going to put all the information for this in the show notes, and we'll just be here cheering you guys on. I love that. You know you were speaking to Sarah Polly on the phone one day, and you're like, Hey, how you doing? And oh yeah, I'm all right. And then something just struck you as No, you're not all right, and 10 minutes later, you show up at her door, and Sarah was like, I fucking felt like shit for fucking I can't think like I love that we do have these friendships where we listen beyond the words that they're telling us and and maybe that's something that we can leave our listeners with. Kate is just that a little bit of advice for those of us who are going through life with dear friends, how do we how do we basically help each other? Like, oh, is that too, too vague, or is there something that you can answer?

Speaker 1  52:34  
That's a beautiful question, because actually, there's a there's a simple answer that we can all do. You don't have to be a therapist that deep listening, that's 90% of it, right? What we need to feel safe and seen and understood is to be heard. Imagine if you can't make yourself heard. Imagine you're like a little kid and you're like, I think I smell smoke, and you're yelling and nobody's listening to you. Just imagine how scary that feels. So if you think, if I can give my presence to my friend, and if I can just listen, I don't even have to say much. I just like, Okay, tell me more. Tell me more. That sounds hard. If we can do that, that's everything, right? So if there's somebody in your life who's having a hard time, please just go listen to them, and you're going to make a powerful difference.

Jann Arden  53:17  
Well, we're going to leave it there. Kate Robson, Sarah Pauley, thank you so much. Congratulations again on your beautiful book, something to hold on to. It's an audio book as well. And Sarah Polly saying, Go listen to that. It's a great way to take in this information and probably a great way to chill out at the end of the day. And you can open it anywhere. I call those bathroom books, any poo, any pee. It doesn't have to be a long, drawn out thing. You sit down on the toilet. I mean, how many times I've had a ring around my butt by sitting and reading books? Do you know what I mean? I'm just being honest here. I'm there. I'm comfortable. I've done my business, and now I've just opened, I've opened Kate Robson's book up, and I'm like, This is gonna help me for today. It's quiet in here. I'm comfortable.

Speaker 3  54:02  
I have a cool breeze on my undercarriage. This is a perfect place.

Unknown Speaker  54:08  
Thank you for this image. I'm going to carry this.

Jann Arden  54:14  
But you know what I mean? You don't have it's like you said, it's not linear. Open it anywhere, like a tarot deck, and go fucking universe, talk to me today. What do I need? And I think little snippets like that are as helpful in our lives as, you know, Googling something and searching for something specific. It's not always something specific. Sometimes it's just I need a morsel of of encouragement. I don't even know what I need. So anyway, thank you for that. We're gonna get through this one pee at a time. I'm telling you, I'm really

Speaker 2  54:45  
looking forward to you doing a Jaja Gabor full eye contact version of the Karen Carpenter song to close out the episode.

Jann Arden  54:55  
Sarah Polly, anything for you. I'm gonna go get a cassette. I'm gonna see what. We find and we are going to close today's episode with you

Speaker 4  55:04  
ever wrote, yeah, the worst songs you've ever heard cannot wait. Thanks for being here today, you guys. Okay, stick around. We're gonna take a short break. We'll be right back.

Unknown Speaker  55:22  
Frantically searching the pagan jail they

Unknown Speaker  55:33  
left behind broken

Jann Arden  55:49  
Well, welcome back just a real quick once around on the scroll. Caitlin, if you wouldn't mind just to find out what the hell is going on out there in the world. The Grammys were this weekend. I'm curious to know what you've got for us this week. You here we go.

Caitlin Green  56:06  
You were right. You're bang on, Jen, it's the Grammys. So last night, at this moment of recording, the big winners were Kendrick Lamar. So he took home five awards last night, and he's now the most decorated rapper in Grammy history with 27 trophies. Whoo, that's pretty impressive stuff. The big, big story too, though, obviously, probably seen tons of clips circulating online, was bad bunny. Bad bunny became the first Spanish language artist to take home the top award of the night Album of the Year, and he made explicit political statements, as did many other artists against ice at the awards. It was a very political awards show last night, Justin and Hailey Bieber were spotted wearing the ice out pins Billie Eilish and Best New Artist winner, Olivia Dean, both made mention of this, you know, in one way or another, during their acceptance speeches. So I thought that was nice to see them stand up kind of with everything that's happening. Sometimes awards shows can feel like they might intentionally be avoiding it for concerns over controversy. But I also think that with Trevor Noah acting as host, it was like even easier to sort of get into it. And then the song golden from the Netflix mega hit k pop demon hunters that became the first Grammy for the K Pop category. And then yesterday, I thought this was kind of like an interesting little tidbit. Steven Spielberg became the 22nd entertainer to reach e got status, meaning he's now won an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar and

Jann Arden  57:21  
a Tony. What did he do? Did he have a soundtrack? Tell me. Tell me what the Grammy was

Caitlin Green  57:25  
for best musical film, which was a documentary about his longtime collaborator John Williams, and all the music that John Williams has done over the course of his career and for his films. And then Justin Bieber's live performance, I think probably was the performance of the night for me, and I think a lot of people were just absolutely transfixed by his vocals. He also went out on in his underwear, and it was a very stripped down, like MTV Unplugged style performance. He went out on a pair of, like, bedazzled silk boxers and just socks, and that's it. There's no There's no backup dancers, there's no lights, there's no nothing. He's on stage with a guitar, and he's so good. I just thought to myself, this is a kid who has been chewed up and spat out by the music industry and by fame and everything else so many times. And to have him just up there in his underwear with a very stripped down performance, literally and figuratively, I was really happy for him, and I thought this is going to be a great precursor to his Coachella headliner.

Jann Arden  58:26  
It was unbelievable, very raw and very emotional, and the audience was transfixed. And you're right, less is more like he didn't need anything. No, he really is a guy that is still standing after a lot of mental health issues and and watching the whole world watched him grow up pretty hard to do stuff when, when the whole world is watching what you're doing. But I've just seen clips today. I'm so messy, the song, I'm so young. It was really great to see her win and just get up there and be so genuinely shocked by by winning that award. Okay, do we have any voice notes?

Speaker 5  59:07  
Hi everyone at the jann Arden podcast. Love your podcast. I was just listening to the one about being handy, and I was wondering how many people change the battery on their car key fobs on their own period. I've always been afraid to do it, thinking I might somehow wreck it, snap something off. So I've paid the dealership to switch up the battery. But this year, when it came up again, I thought, all right, I'm going to try this by myself. And I got it open, fine, but then you got to snap the little battery out. And when I did that, the whole thing completely fell apart into like there had to be 20 pieces. And I thought, Oh, crap, what have I done? So I opened up the second one carefully and used it as a guide, and I managed to get it back together. I was sweating buckets, but I did get it back together, thank goodness. But I thought, does anybody else have. The same trouble that I do. Anyways, it was a fun podcast today. I'm Marie from just outside Prince Edward County, which I know you're familiar with. I'm the one who, last year, asked for your advice and what to do about the people in Tucson, Arizona, asking me how I felt about becoming the 51st state update on that. We sold our place. We didn't go back. We sold it. We closed on Tuesday, and it feels good to do our tiny little part, to make a statement. And who would want to be down there? Anyways? Anyways, continue the great work. Always look forward to each week's podcast. Thanks.

Jann Arden  1:00:33  
Bye. So much. That's awesome. Yeah, talk about yes and doing your little part. It is, it's important, and they obviously just didn't want to have neighbors kind of making fun of them. Are you gonna be the 51st state? Like, anyways,

Caitlin Green  1:00:46  
and then let's talk about the 51st state. Yeah.

Jann Arden  1:00:50  
Anyway. Thank you. Thank you very much for your note. And congratulations, I would I would not have the gumption to replace a battery on my FOB. I have a hard time replacing the battery on my those air tags, like I've done that a couple of times, and it takes me 10 minutes to get them open. I feel like I'm fucking shocking oysters.

Sarah Burke  1:01:08  
And on that note, okay, we're gonna go over to Patreon with Lou. Yes. What are we talking about in Patreon today, I

Jann Arden  1:01:16  
got to talk to you about the thermal spa, the sky lagoon in Iceland. I also

Caitlin Green  1:01:20  
want to hear about Sarah's wired and debut.

Sarah Burke  1:01:23  
Yes, we'll see you over there.

Jann Arden  1:01:25  
Yeah, we'll see you over there. But we're always, we're always ready to talk about anything over there. I'm gonna get some shit out of these girls today. I'm gonna, I'm gonna hit them with some hard hitting personal questions. You just wait. Come on over come on. Jump over that pay wall, folks. We'll see you there. Thanks for listening to the jann Arden Podcast. Sarah Burke, Caitlin, green as always,

Speaker 6  1:02:00  
she's somewhere in LA she's driving around in sweet daddy's car. She's probably taking every man in that town, taking every man in that town.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai