Joyful, Anyway with Kate Bowler

Jann Arden  
Jan. Hello. Welcome to the Jan Arden podcast. I am Jan Arden. I come to you today from Calgary, Alberta, more specifically, spring bank, Alberta, Caitlin green, Sarah Burke, are in their Toronto homes, and we have a huge announcement right off the top of the show. I'm gonna throw it over to you, Sarah, we got some news. Girl, we got some news.

Sarah Burke  
We got some news. This happened really fast, like our first time talking about it right now, all three of us is with you, so just please feel special. Please feel special because we're sharing it with you during what was formerly Canadian Music Week, a big music and sort of like Radio Conference and Festival. It's now called departure. There's a little radio conference in there called Radio Days North America. We're part of the announcement. We're doing a live podcast taping on Tuesday, May 5, Sanco de Mayo, and we're very excited to get back on stage in Toronto, yay. And hopefully you already saw the announcement and you've already purchased your tickets. Our only Jan's got a little discount. Got to know before everyone else, which is why we always say be an only Jan

Jann Arden  
on Patreon. Only Jan, that still kills me. Caitlin green.

Sarah Burke  
Caitlin green, you coined that exactly. So it's at St Lawrence Center for the Performing Arts. There's a beautiful couple of theaters in there. And if you don't have your tickets yet, we'll have all the links in the show notes, and we're going for a solo so let's do this.

Unknown Speaker  
How many tickets are available? About

Sarah Burke  
approximately, I believe it was going to be 480 including industry and our fans, but, I mean, I'm probably not supposed to say this, but if we sell that out, there's another option to upgrade to the bigger theater. Oh, just let's

Unknown Speaker  
go to the big Everyone

Jann Arden  
listen, I wouldn't be sad if we had to open up more tickets. What a great opportunity to come and see us. We are going to announce probably a guest, yeah, or two. The girls and I are talking about it. We've got some lines on some pretty special people. We're trying to align schedules because, like I said, and like Sarah mentioned, came together really quickly. She talked to me about this, like, 48 hours ago, and I'm like, yes, yes, yes, I'm checking my calendar. And we're really excited. Anyway, we got lots to talk about today. Cut to just quick things that are happening in your lives. We've got a few minutes before we have our wonderful guest today. Kate bowler is a friend of the shows. She's got a brand new book out that we're going to talk about, but yeah, she is just an inspirational, beautifully emotionally intelligent human being. She's dealt with a lot of shit in her life. She's not modeling about it, or saccharin about it. She deals with things in a really economically beautiful way, and she's never preachy. She's not telling you what the hell you should do or how you should live your life. So it's not like a she's not a self help guru. She never touts herself that way. She's very, very much a person that speaks to her experiences, and if you glean something from what she does, that's great, but I love her vulnerability. Anyway, we're gonna save as much time as we can for Kate. So Sarah, what's going on in your world? And and Caitlin, what's going on in your world?

Caitlin Green  
What is going on with me? I had my wallet slash, maybe identity stolen from a children's birthday party this weekend.

Unknown Speaker  
That's where it happens. Those little shits

Caitlin Green  
get you every time, right? Okay, but I won't, like, I won't besmirch the name of the club, because, like, the police are investigating, so maybe it's somewhere else, but we think that it's like 99% it was at like, this location. So is that private

Sarah Burke  
targeted a children's party location?

Caitlin Green  
Well, no, it was a private, like, members only club, and so I went into the bathroom, and I must have slipped my little card carrier into my small cosmetics bag. I go to the bathroom, I put lip balm on. It's like a kind of like a seating area, because it's like a women's change room, and so I left it sitting on the counter. I didn't realize this until a couple, like hours later, that I didn't have my cosmetics bag, but I was like, Oh, I probably left it there. No big deal if I lose some lip gloss. Like who cares? Not realizing that I must have slipped my card case in there. So I realized this yesterday, and the person has racked up $800 in charges, which I'm obviously now disputing with my bank. So I'll get the money back. It's fine, but it's just a funny thing to have. Whoever you

Jann Arden  
are, fuck off. People are working hard for their money. You are a piece of shit. And I don't know what's wrong with people. I'm just gonna say that it is unacceptable, and I'll tell you what. To go a little bit further. This is a women's change washroom facility. If women cannot support women, have women's back and protect each other in a goddamn bathroom. You know all is lost, so you're a fucking turd. Anyway, full stop, amen Sister, you wouldn't listen to this because you probably don't listen to anything educational. You probably never read a book in your life, and further that, you're just out scamming the world. So anyway, I hope Karma is a bitch. That's all I can say. Sorry. Caitlin, sorry that that's happened to you. But unless they've looked me

Caitlin Green  
up, unless they've looked me up and are listening because they're trying to steal my identity, which

Sarah Burke  
what is your message for them? My message is,

Caitlin Green  
give my identity back and don't put this on the dark web. I'm worth nothing. I don't have like, my net worth is zero. It's negative 10 million, probably. So that's not

Jann Arden  
even the point, Caitlin. Caitlin is somebody grabs that very quickly before you shut it down, and racks up $800

Unknown Speaker  
starts tapping, tap, tap.

Jann Arden  
Peroo, I know that you would go to someone who had a microphone or a PA system, or even you would like tap on a glass and go, Hey, ladies, just was in the bathroom who left this little sparkly cosmetic bag. You know that that's the thing to do. So they

Caitlin Green  
saw it. It's bad karma. This is what I will say. It's

Jann Arden  
unacceptable. It's a shitty, shitty thing, and you're a shitty person. And, you know, get yourself together.

Caitlin Green  
Jan says you're a turd. I love calling people a turd. So that happened. I'm shaking it off. I went to a fantastic stand up comedy show over the weekend for a comedian named Rory Scoville, and I cannot recommend. He's gonna have a it's gonna it was a special that's being filmed. So when it's released, I'm assuming it'll be with HBO. That's where his last special was. Treat yourselves to going to see watch this. Listen to it. He has comedy albums on Spotify. He is so friggin funny if you need a mood elevator. Rory Scoville cannot co sign

Sarah Burke  
enough, Sarah, I hate to relate to your story about fraud. I just finished my corporate taxes for the year, and yeah, so I'm like, talking to my bookkeeper, and she's like, this charge with the BC ferry. And I'm like, wait, what? So BC is not somewhere I have been over the last calendar year, so yeah, basically, like, two different BC ferry charges from my business account, I got the money back. Like, right? You dispute it with the bank, and everything's fine, but, like, what? So, yeah, that was unnerving. And celebrated my birthday belated with my parents, and it's been a busy weekend preparing for our live show. So it's all I feel like my weekend is tomorrow.

Caitlin Green  
I'm so excited about this live show. I just love it. I love live shows. I love when we have a live audience. I love that the only Jans, the Patreon members show up and show out. They have, like, only Jan's shirts on. They sit in the front. And the last one we did in Toronto, like the one that we did in Calgary, was really special. That Nenshi was there. And it felt like this was this beautiful room. It was so great. And, you know, the one that we had in Toronto previously, we, like, had games. So I just, I love a live audience. I know it's like, nerve wracking in some ways, but I also think it like forces you to kind of you step into a different energy. Don't you guys find like you absolutely, it's just, it's it's great. I cannot wait for this. It's a difference

Jann Arden  
between listening to a record or going to see live music. It's very similar. And I think you'll find that the three of us are exactly what we present to you, like there's no hidden agenda. I think we might blow dry our hair and maybe wear a matching outfit instead of the garbage that I've got on right now. But yeah, I'm gonna go shopping, for sure.

Sarah Burke  
Yeah, podcasts are competing with you know what's happening on our televisions now, and I feel like it's an appropriate time to throw to Caitlin green, yes, and the scroll, aha,

Caitlin Green  
that's my favorite part of the scroll, by the way, is Jan's whoops, her hoots and hollers. Okay, so speaking of things on your screens, you've probably seen this three named woman everywhere and gone. If you're not addicted to reality TV like me, you're probably going, Who the heck is this and why is she constantly trending? Her name is Taylor. Frankie Paul, so this is not three people. This is not three different men. This is one woman. She's the star of Secret Lives of Mormon wives. This is a hit reality show set in Utah that follows the lives of these very Tiktok famous Mormon women. They're very beautiful and pretty and young. They have multiple children, and they have a lot of drama in their lives. So Taylor, Frankie Paul is the leader, quote, unquote, of Mom Talk. She's kind of the one who started it all. She's frequently the most headlined one of all of them, and she was recently cast as the Bachelorette. This is a huge coup for her. The show is in season five. Right now. Filming, filming has been paused because the scandal has broken out. And the entire season of The Bachelorette, which she filmed in its entirety, so millions and millions of dollars for ABC and Disney and Hulu, is now called like done. They're scrapping it. They're never going to release it. What did she do? Her ex partner, who she has children with filmed a domestic violence incident that occurred in 2023 between the two of them. So he's filming it on a cell phone. Somehow, this footage falls into the hands of TMZ. A lot of people are speculating that because he and her have such this drama, acrimonious relationship, that he held onto this and released it to coincide with the preempt of her season of The Bachelorette, just to be particularly

Unknown Speaker  
hurtful, right?

Unknown Speaker  
Mormons are such nice people,

Caitlin Green  
so I will say the video is heartbreaking. Anyone who's seen this knows there, there is a childhood crying in the background. She throws a stool at him. It's alleged that the stool may have accidentally hit the child like but he does pick up filming halfway through this in. Incident. So you wonder what happened on his end before this took place. I'll also say this incident was widely documented on the very first season of this show, back in 2023 she's arrested. It's addressed in the first season police go to the house. You see body cam footage from the officers. This is no secret. What happened is that the video is now being released publicly, so people are seeing it for the first time, but ABC and Disney, which do so much research into whoever they cast as the Bachelor of The Bachelorette, they would have known about this. They knew well about this, and instead, now they've kind of like gotten a little bit caught with this video being made public, and they're trying to distance themselves from her. So she says she's gonna release her side of the story. He has filed a restraining order against her. It is a disaster, and it is like on a corporate entertainment level, the reason I think this is gaining so much traction everywhere, and you're seeing it everywhere, is because this is resulting in them canceling the season of The Bachelor. But now there's a larger conversation with producers of do we even want the bachelorette series to continue? It's been fraught with drama. Clearly, on a production level, they have a vetting issue on their hands, and so now they're thinking they may scrap this all together, like it could be the end of the franchise. What else you got?

Unknown Speaker  
Caitlin, what else on the good

Caitlin Green  
side of entertainment? And I love this because it's about a Canadian. It's about Ryan Gosling, one of my favorite people. He is now having the biggest box office success of his career with Project Hail Mary. This has become Amazon's highest grossing film debut in like a few days. You know, gets released over the course of like three days opening weekend. I think it has like an 80 point 6 million debut. Now it's 130 million, I think, over the last couple of days as well, the pre sales are huge. This is a it's like 96% on Rotten Tomatoes. Critical Success Story, massive box office success story. I'm gonna watch it.

Unknown Speaker  
I'm gonna watch it just on what you've said. My

Caitlin Green  
husband, Kyle read it, loved the book, and the author of the book basically wrote this for Ryan Gosling. And so they've been working on this for six years behind the scenes. It is a real like project with heart, and I can't wait to go see it. I've got my tickets to go see it Saturday. So if you have seen it, tell us. Let us know. Give us your reviews. And last but not least, because Jan is the cruise Queen on this show. I am, I have to talk about the story. Hundreds of people have registered for a 15 year long cruise. It is called Villa V residences Odyssey ship. It is the first perpetual world cruise, which will let residents sail non stop for 15 years to visit 147 countries. And they're saying, think of it as swapping your house for a floating neighborhood, Spa Fitness Center, pickleball courts, library, restaurants, doctor, medical facilities, freedom to decorate your own cabin for the low, low price of between 130 and $440,000 would you guys go on 15 years? For 15 years?

Unknown Speaker  
$100,000 for 15 years. That's

Caitlin Green  
bad. I know between $130,000 to like a fancy cabin, that would be $440,000

Jann Arden  
Caitlin, you cannot live in the world for 15 years on $400,000 so so is, is everything all in, is food in and drinks are in. And, yeah, they're saying

Caitlin Green  
restaurants on site, doctor, like, this would be a

Unknown Speaker  
great place for alcoholics, really?

Caitlin Green  
Gosh, yeah. So they're saying that this is, you know, this is the suite. They're gonna have some monthly fees. Now, let's wait for the monthly fees to be released the condo.

Jann Arden  
They're gonna be like, 10 grand a month.

Caitlin Green  
But everyone's saying, for a lot of people who are retired, and they're looking at their and if you think about this, the wait list to get into a, like, a retirement residence, or you say to yourself, hey, I'm healthy enough that I could be on a cruise. Maybe you think to do this. So I don't know, maybe, like some of our only Jans are going to add to the

Jann Arden  
wait list, but listen, I wouldn't do it ever. Sorry. Well, these people will never sponsor us. There's things. There's so many ship born ailments. Literally, when you're traveling with a few 100 I would imagine it's a huge ship. So for that kind of money, it's got to be something that's got 1500 or 2000 passengers on it. I don't think this is a super yacht, you know. So there's that, there's 2000 people. The war going on in Iran has affected so many things in the Strait of Hormuz and all this stuff that you're hearing about. So just imagine any kind of conflict, your routing is going to be changed constantly depending on what's going on and fuel like, who knows what's going to happen with that? I just don't think it's a safe bet. The last thing I would ever want to be is stranded somewhere where they won't let people off the ship and you can't go on shore. All the things that happen on ships, I wouldn't do it, but you're right. There's probably a lot of positives. But what happens in neighborhoods? There's disputes, there's people that plant a tree six inches over on somebody else's property line, and people get murdered, murdered. You know, these fights that escalate. So imagine being 15 years beside a cabin of somebody who's bonking all the time. I would at six months, I literally would be ready to jump off the ship and swim to wherever I could. I would then be on a desert island.

Caitlin Green  
I would never do it, but I would watch that reality show. So that was the scroll. Thank you for that,

Jann Arden  
Caitlin, you're welcome. Listen, we're going to take a quick break. Kate bowler is going to be with us, so go get yourself a cup of tea or whatever. Or come back. Sit down, take a pause in your walk, and don't miss this conversation.

Sarah Burke  
We'll be right back. We're going to talk about joy.

Jann Arden  
Aren't you glad you came back after that break, because finally, here we are. I'm so happy to be sitting with you, Kate, so welcome. Thank you. I'm going to tell you what you are right now. Are you ready? You are a best selling author. You are a Duke professor and someone who has a really refreshing way of talking about life, shit that doesn't always go as planned. You have a new book called joyful anyway, and you can pre order. We're going to have all that information in our show notes. It kind of throws out the idea that we're supposed to be happy all the time, which I'm very interested in talking to you about. And instead of that, it asks how we find those nuggets of joy when things are really hard and messy because we forgot how to do that, we're going to talk to you about that. You also host your own podcast. Everything happens which millions, millions. We do not have millions of people. We have a couple of Caitlin's friends and some people that Sarah used to work with who are listening today. And they listen for exactly that reason, because they want honesty. They want reality. You know, they don't want to how to they just want to know that other people are experiencing the stuff they are. You're actually on tour right now, so thank you for taking time for us. Winnipeg is already sold out. You're having one of our friends. Meredith Shaw is going to be with you. Toronto is coming up April the second, so you still have an opportunity to see her there with Rick Mercer, my old pal, Rick Mercer, anyway, Kate, so happy to have you with us. Welcome. How are you? Oh my gosh. I'm just

Speaker 1  
so glad to be with you guys. I'm not only like the biggest fan of this podcast, but I just always have a good time when I'm with you. So hello, lovelies. I love your

Caitlin Green  
background. First of all,

Kate Bowler  
oh, I decorate like I run a Victorian orphanage, and so if you are, if you're a haunted child, come on by. It looks

Caitlin Green  
really pretty and you have a Winnipeg like a little pennant behind you. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1  
Who's gonna rep Winnipeg, but me. This is me. This is my plan. Caitlin gets

Jann Arden  
Victorian diseases a lot from her child.

Speaker 1  
Do you have? Yeah, let's get a fainting couch for you. Ben, I could really

Jann Arden  
use it. Let's dive into this, your brand new book. Joyful. Anyway, people feel guilty about being happy, yes, especially when they have friends that are in the shit. So you know, what do you do? How can we be in the shit and still somehow go but I've got a nice cup of coffee in my hand and appreciate that. Maybe that's what it's about.

Kate Bowler  
Well, I think we do have a culture that pretends that every day is supposed to be, like, New Year's Day. Like, congratulations, hope you're gonna live up to your

Sarah Burke  
resolutions. Try, try, try.

Kate Bowler  
And I think especially for women, we've been given these like, we're just five step exhausted. Like, can I buy larger water bottles for women? Like, how many vitamin C supplements with liposom liposomal delivery, do I need to have in every beverage I am at the point where I like cannot be optimized anymore, and I think with this, like happiness, do better good vibes culture, it has left all of us feeling like we were supposed to have figured it out and never can. So in light of that, I was like, well, then what do we do? Like, what do the rest of us do if we can't always be better? Like, is, shouldn't there be something wonderful? We can still be promised, even though we're not always going to be happy?

Jann Arden  
Does it come down to life is hard, things are going to be shitty. You were not promised this beer commercial of a life, as you say, like on top of that, are we a generation of people? Maybe not so much, but people the generation below us, and then maybe one more below that. Are they just not used to obstacles, and they're just not used to having to overcome hard things, because we have grandparents that tell us I went up to school, I walked 14 miles, both ways uphill, and we ate coal. That's what we had.

Kate Bowler  
That's right, delicious black lung food. It is, I'll say, honestly, I think we're in a really weird cultural moment. I think we are just self helped up the wazoo. I think everything that's sold to us is like a breathing practice or something about being grateful, and then we look at the headlines and we feel the fragility of our institutions for most of the generations underneath us, home ownership is not possible. Drugs that were invented to cure, say, HIV AIDS, is now no longer available for most of Sub Saharan Africa, and yet somehow I can get free same day shipping on my acne patches like, what kind of Apocalypse is this? I think it's very strange. And I think what we have is this real sense of fragility. Over top of that has been laid this insane good vibes culture, which mostly. Sounds in my mind, like all the time. It's very stressful. So if those two things are only superficially interacting, and both of those will either say, do everything or don't even like there's nothing worth doing, just despair. Both of those are not, they're they're not human sized projects. And I'm just very interested in like, because I really believe that there are lovely things about being a human that are available to all of us. In fact, they're free. In fact, they're so gorgeous, they're gifts we can give each other. And that's why I got so interested in joy. Is like, is joy something that can actually carry us through the light Apocalypse without trying to five step us into another kind of mania. And I think it really can

Unknown Speaker  
Caitlin, I want you to jump in there.

Caitlin Green  
I'm curious about kind of, like, the concept of, like, I think about, like, big pharma and like big tech and stuff. I think there really is, like, a big happy and so part of me feels like it's an industry, and the second that people quickly identified that there are eyeballs and there are people willing to pay money for someone to please, for the love of God, tell me to be happy. How do I be happy? I want the 12 Steps. So do you feel like that is like a kind of like a byproduct of the demand that like this industry has been created? And do you sort of see yourself as being like this outlier rebel who's like, flanking the vessel, like Greenpeace, being like, hey, this isn't working for everyone.

Kate Bowler  
First of all, Caitlin, I love you. Every time you talk, it brings my heart gladness. And I mean, you're right. There is a big happy out there. It is a wellness, health and wellness, which is just health, wealth, happiness, optimization, promises as a $12 billion a year industry and growing Jesus is specially targeted to women, or all those of us who feel scared and sad, and it has repeatedly, really done a very funny thing. Theologian Miroslav Volf calls it the happiness tangle, and it's a funny description of what's happening is, if it goes like this, did you know that if you look into your partner's eyes for 30 seconds, you can experience small but measurable increases in happiness? It's this nice, like sweet NPR voice and and then they're like, oh, okay, that sounds statistically significant, and they're like, did you also know that people could go to bed at the same time as their partner? And then they just start adding up all these small statistical associations, and then they reap repackage it as an existential claim about what it actually means to feel good about being alive. So instead, we're just given like, a million tiny little bricks, and they're like, Don't worry, it'll add up to a big happiness castle. And we know that it mostly just leaves us tired, exhausted, and definitely poorer than when we started. Yes, yeah, which makes me bananas. It really does make my whole life. It just be me being like, this makes me bananas. Well, I think it makes everyone bananas.

Caitlin Green  
And like, the reason why I feel like your books are so like your books are so good and your podcast is so successful is because everyone's kind of like, we all feel this way, but when that's sort of the the line that gets pushed by, like, big happy, it eventually derails you, just because you're being given this information so much, it's like this echo chamber. And we do need a few people who are, like, living in reality and have had bad things happen to them. Things beyond their control happen to them, and they're saying, hey, like, if this doesn't feel like it's resonating for you, you're not alone. You're not the weird one for saying that this isn't hitting the same way that it used to.

Kate Bowler  
And the more we sign up to the feeling that we were supposed to always be happy, I think that the more we're chasing happiness, the less we are likely to experience genuine joy. And I think it helps if we think about happiness and joy as being actually, like they're cousins, but they're pretty different. I mean, they're different psychologically, they're different neurologically. Like happiness is a sense of ease. It's comes from the word hap, the Norse word for happenstance, which just means, like, stuff that happens to you. So if you're a happy person, congratulations. You're probably like, there's a nice breeze and your beverage is the right temperature, and no one's fought with you that day. You have this accumulated sense of luck being on your side. Joy, on the other hand, is not a sense of ease. It's like this jolt feeling. It's this bright, enlivening feeling that's really interesting, because it coexists with both your dopamine, like all your reward systems, but also your stress systems. And the second I read that, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's why I can still feel joy in the hospital or at a funeral, or in like a weird moment where nothing was supposed to happen, when nothing was fixed, like joy is actually possible inside of our realities, happiness requires that everything will have worked out by then.

Jann Arden  
There's so many little micro lessons that people really gravitate towards. They really hang the. Themselves and what you have to say, because it gives them permission to be in a moment of panic. And like you just said, find all of a sudden there's something joyful. If they see an old friend that they didn't expect to see when they're not feeling great, or someone brings you soup in the middle of the flu. You know you're scared, you feel like you're going to die and all these things, but you see a familiar face come in with a soup and it's just like a sense of, oh, there's this reprieve from my own feelings of doom and gloom. I've always wanted to ask you what it feels like to things aren't boiled down, I mean, but your ideas do gets consolidated sometimes, and I'm wondering, are you comfortable with the messages sometimes that people take away, that they simplify it to the point where you're like, well, that's not really what I meant. But if that's helping you, and if you can shape it into what you need, then it's a win. Win.

Kate Bowler  
Yeah, I think what would especially mean a lot to me about this, like, especially, like joy being kind of a big category, but we want it to show up in our everyday life. I think what would mean the most to me is that in people, in their ordinary moments, felt like they that their lives can still have extraordinary moments. Like joy is the moment where you feel somehow like it's temporary wholeness, like you are somehow not just worth surviving this life, but like loving this life. So like joy is the moment where our souls just say yes, and it can be like folding laundry, and then you're reminded of the way that your mom held you. And actually, weren't you always good? Weren't you always good, you know? And it like lights us up. And I, I just think that these mysteries, like Joy, I would love them to be as simple as people knowing that even though they didn't have a life that worked out that joy is actually made human size, just for them, just for their delight.

Jann Arden  
Do you think that's why people just from a theological point of view, kind of the idea of God point of view, that people tend to really rely on this, the invisible nature of faith, that there is purpose, even in like you said, they're they're not. They don't have the life that they thought they would have. They don't have the job, they don't have the relationship. But then there's this, the God particle that comes into the idea of joy, that there's an external force that's rooting for you. And I've I find a little bit of danger in that. Sometimes I don't know why, because I feel like people say, Oh, God will look after it. Oh, I, you know what? It's God's will that. And I it's terrible. It makes I totally agree.

Kate Bowler  
Yeah, we are in complete agreement. Like, there's no version of a story about being a person where you have to, like, find the lesson in the worst moment of your life and somehow call it good. You just don't have to do it. And I, I just don't, I don't think it's spiritually reasonable to force people to do that like, what I really like about the one part of joy that kind of helps us that has an intimate relationship. What I think with faith is it's kind of like one way to tell something's joy is like, you know, if you have a glass but and you flick it, but actually it's just plastic, like, it doesn't ring. Joy is like, like, if you hit the crystal, like you feel the ringing of it. And that's kind of how sometimes people experience what we call like transcendence, is you get this ringing feeling like everything in your life is somehow like a deepest, weirdest kind of okay. And sometimes we feel it like I feel it when I look at my kid's big, dumb moon face just shining his little love on me. And I like, can't believe, I can't believe that I survived long enough to be his mom. And I just like, you have that weird feeling like you could starve to death. You love somebody so much, and that feels like eternity, and also just now, and like, Did you do your homework? And it's like, those moments that ring, those that that I think is what we feel like, when we feel like we participate in eternity. And I do think that we can be people who have those, what I think of as like spiritual joy experiences more and more often, without having to say like there was any magical reason or lesson or purpose in the garbage.

Jann Arden  
There's many, many, many physicists and people that study quantum physics and the idea of time not existing, and things like that. And there's a real common denominator that has kind of blown my mind in the last few years, and that being of how statistically almost improbable it is. That we are here in bodies, in a biological form to begin with. And I do talk about this a lot because I find it fascinating, wonderful, joyful, spectacular, other worldly, science fiction, whatever you want to call it, the fact that we are walking around on the planet. And I think if a lot of more people let themselves be kind of more open to the idea of absolute, pure magic.

Kate Bowler  
Yeah, that's the magic of it is like the opposite of joy is despair, right? Despair says isn't it isn't good, like it isn't good to be that's the kind of philosophical question that all of us sometimes are trying to answer when we go through long seasons of depression or things. I mean, I grew up in a family of depressives. I know what it looks like when your future seems to collapse in front of you and there's nothing to feel hopeful about. But every now and then, when we recover that feeling like you're saying that it is just kind of a miracle that we're on the earth.

Jann Arden  
I mean, look at your hand. Look at you guys made people Sarah and I haven't, but I cannot fathom looking at a person that came out of your body and not question everything that you think, even in the middle of all the wrongness and all the pain to exist. And maybe that's just not enough for people. I mean, we were just talking about the manosphere. I'd love you to weigh in on this, but it's a documentary Louis Theroux kind of speaks to these men that are kind of snake oil salesman, as Caitlin puts it, and clearly manipulating young men to give them basically money on a monthly basis to support their lives, their idea of masculinity and but I just see that as human beings that are completely detached from the wonder and splendor of love and affection and joy, real joy. Yes, that it's that it's been supplemented by this false sense, whether it's money or women or sex or all those things. But it Do you have? Can you comment to that at all? I don't want to put you on the spot, but it seems to be a real talking point with women in particular looking at these men,

Kate Bowler  
oh my gosh, that documentary was quite telling. And there's one moment in particular that really stuck with me about this one manosphere influencer looking at a woman and saying, Well, you have inherent value. You have and then naming her anatomical features. I have to admit, I thought about that for a long time, that he was effectively saying that women were good only insofar as they were useful to him. And I think it has taken, I think it takes all of us a long time, and women in particular, to be able to answer the question of their own goodness, totally separate from this sexualized perversion of like, whether or not we are good, just good, good, not useful, not beautiful, not pleasing, not perky, just like inherently unshakably good. And I think it's quite horrifying that we are now so busy instrumentalizing each other, making each other into things, that we're going to strip people of that fundamental story we all need to be able to tell that says, like, yes, this all on its own, is, is the best idea that God ever had.

Jann Arden  
Maybe this is a good segue. And the girls and I talk about this a lot of of women aging, and the conversation that is happening with some women really having caused these visceral reactions, whether it's the Kardashian clan, and literally having their faces taken off and set on a tray beside them and and having them replanted, and they look absolutely like, oh my god, that just looks unbelievably fantastic for a quarter of a million dollars. But I think you know. And then there's just the question of, you know, Justine Bateman comes to mind. People may remember her from family ties, and Justine is is a little bit younger than me. I'm 64 but she is just, she's not doing anything. She probably doesn't even tweeze her eyebrows, and she's absolutely in herself. And she's just like the blowback of, you know, my social media and people looking at me and being like, oh my god, she has let herself go, and I love aging. I love getting older. So far, I haven't done anything not to say that. I wouldn't, so I don't, I don't want to dispel that. But why in joining up with your last comment about God, we're just trying to figure out, even as young women, how to just be inherently good, just without any accouterments. And now aging gets put onto that pile.

Kate Bowler  
Totally, you're totally right. I, I am so I, I've had, you know, because of cancer, I've had so many abdominal surgeries. I'm, like, currently on my ninth belly button. And I so, I, I've been in the. Was like plastic surgery meetings where they're looking at you and being like, terrible car accident, or just like, not really sure what we want to do with you. And I've really, it's taken, it's, it's taken me a long time to see what, what a weird continuum we're on, where, like, unless you're a billionaire, like, and can afford tasteful alterations, like you do get the body you get. And most of us, I mean, I think half of Americans, I'm gonna guess at least a third of Canadians, have some form of, like, chronic illness, chronic pain, chronic like, so we're not even, we're not even like, supposed to be optimizing our faces at this point, we're mostly just trying to make our parts work and, like, both kidneys functioning. So I do think that, like, we have extended our story about perfectionism to be into like, such insane degrees that now, actually no one can win.

Caitlin Green  
I'm curious also about like, the AI of it all, and how this is going to continue on this like striving for perfection, the idea that, like you can physically look perfect now, because of advances to medicine and advances to, you know, cosmetic surgeries and also to like that, you can continue to put forth this idea of perfection because all of your work, all of your emails, all of your correspondence, is now cleaned up with AI, you can, AI the shit out of your face if you need to. You can. You can really perfect everything if you want to put that energy in. And I just feel like, there, you know, I think years ago, I heard the term radical self acceptance, a lot that's fallen by the wayside, but it does feel radical, like the idea of like, accepting yourself warts and all does really feel like this, like outlier rock and roll kind of metal concept that we need to bring back to an extent, because, like, Jan's one of the few people that I know who's, like, I love getting old. I think this is great. And like Jan, like she's never looked better or been happier, and that is something that I think women don't really get to, like, come around to it until you're older, and you do, sort of, like, age out of, quote, unquote, the male gaze. And the idea that when you age out of it, like, for young women, they're like, oh my god, I'm aging out of the male gaze. And then older women come in and are like, it's a relief. It's like, it's a huge gift. And I think I am thankfully hearing that more and more now, but like I do, I just wonder, like, the AI perfection pursuit of it all is, like, it's freaking me out, because it feels like it's the same kind of like, it's part of the same problem of big happy of like, you can be perfect. You can have it all. You can look the best when you're Chris Jenner's age. You can just 3d print a new face. And I'm like, Yeah, but should you be doing that? Are you not hollowing yourself out on the inside by just focusing on the outside only totally

Kate Bowler  
it's so funny. Like the first half, the whole, first whole half of my book is about me mostly just running into optimizers and people selling happiness algorithms and people with new phases. And I just like, can't handle I met a guy whose last meal was at 11am so that he could digest for the rest of the day optimally. And I was like, I this is, I don't want, I don't want to get better. Then who wants that?

Caitlin Green  
Like, I just wonder about who's hearing that and saying, like, I have to give myself the full day to digest, like, it's just too much for your brain to take in. I'm like, I don't, didn't we all just used to go to school and drink from the water fountain two times throughout the day and have a peanut butter sandwich, and we were never happier.

Kate Bowler  
I do think I will say one of the one of the real like Joy killers, I think is going to be AI and be the just even the metaphor that we're supposed to become more and more like the machines and the optimization systems that we're making ourselves available to that if that kind of like limitlessness and an intolerance for imperfection, and we just mean by imperfection limitation, like machines that never tire, never like stop creating quadrants out of our face and decide which part is like, slightly asymmetrical from this. We can never have art. We can never have honesty. We can never have I mean, it's that lovely quote from Nick Cave about after the death of his son, when he when he said, Well, if AI asked me to write a song about a boy like, what? What could they write? Like, our biggest truths come out of our imperfections, our pain, our limitation, our desperate need to transcend what limits us. And I think these stories of constant progression are going to keep us in routines and keep us with goals that will like, actually prevent us from living beautifully inside the lives we actually have

Jann Arden  
do you think living in large urban areas are playing or wreaking havoc on our immune systems? They say that there's children right up to like 1012, 13 years old that can identify simple animals that. They wouldn't be able to, like, they have very, very little connection to nature, and have not been exposed to nature other than the odd bird in a tree and maybe seeing a squirrel in the backyard. They really have no concept, because their parents are both working. They're busy. Like, there's a lot of statistics that are showing that these kids, like, a decade into their lives have never been taken to stand on the side of a river, and they've never, never been taken to walk through trees. And I, and I know you know who makes the statistics? Who knows? But I am kind of living proof. I know people that they they just don't take their kids places. They're busy. They put them into classes like they're in whatever, but they're literally getting in the car, driving down a concrete jungle and going into another building to do a craft, which is all fine and well, but I think we're doing so many things wrong, as far as trying to, you know, work on our the regulation of our nervous systems, can you, can you talk to the nature part of our humanity and how that plays a part for you? Is it important?

Kate Bowler  
Oh, totally. And, I mean, I think that's why we're I think Jan and I were both real fans of Scandinavian countries right now for different reasons, and they make access to nature, a human right in neighborhoods, the walkable access to outdoor spaces. And I think that gets back to like, what our souls need, and not just our I mean, like our spiritual selves, our animal selves, like we need to be surprised, but we do. We need to be out of our robot selves and into a place where we can encounter and we can just find a way to be able to live, I mean, to be able to find places where we could say yes. I think one of the funniest things that has taught me that is my son bought a metal detector, and he goes through the neighborhood collecting things that will make us basically get his number. Jan loves this. He's effectively a hoarder and and every day he comes back with pockets full of treasure. Well, we have to decide, is it junk? Is it garbage? Or is

Jann Arden  
it is it an old bomb from the Second World War? Exactly, Mom squad,

Speaker 1  
honey, why is that ticking? He did find a 1936 Chevrolet hubcap, and it's convinced him that, like now, that's it. We're screwed. There's treasures everywhere.

Unknown Speaker  
Now he's just got to find the car.

Kate Bowler  
I tried to explain to him that a family that owns a junkyard in the backyard, and they're so therefore their children are not taught to read. Was actually the premise of a recent best selling book, and then that people would want to rescue him from us, but he was, he was not sold.

Jann Arden  
I know I feel better when I feed birds like I've been doing things for so many years. I mean, getting sober, yes, changed everything a lot, but, you know, I started reading just about regulating nervous systems, and I'm like, Oh my God. Without knowing it, I was doing really simple things to help myself. So I always just, I love the fact that your messages are so rooted in simple sentiment and just being a person, and God, you're gonna fuck up a lot, and it's not gonna always feel good, but I I love the hopefulness of the idea that joy can just jump out of the trees and catch you so unaware that you literally see like a bumble bee and and you're like, why am I so happy about seeing a bumble bee like I feel like crying all the time now, because I feel joyful, not happy. I feel joyful and I'm always I'm perpetually optimistic anyway, like even the face of whatever. I've always been an optimistic person, but it is my nature, and the girls and I talk about that, I don't That's how my brain works. I'm optimistic when I shouldn't be, but I know some people are not wired for that.

Kate Bowler  
Yeah, it's hard. Like I knew that I needed to make a turn toward joy when I noticed that at a certain moment in my life, like that, too many things had happened to me at that point so that I just couldn't have, like, a lightly delusional story about how things are going to be okay. And so I'll give you an example. I was in the hospital. I was just had a horrific surgery. I was ready to go home. The doctor came in, and he was the one I genuinely hated, and he said, knock, knock. And I was like, Dude, that's not a metaphor. Knock on that door, and I don't want you in here. And he came in with his hands up in front of him, because I guess they were clean. And for some reason he was like, Kate, you have a surgical tube in your stomach, and I need to take it out. And one, I didn't know there was a surgical tube in my stomach. Two, I didn't want him to take it out. But some, for some reason, him, with his hands up, really reminded me of when my brother in law was a wrestler who was really into up close magic and kept trying to take quarters out from behind my ears. And it just in my heart. I was like, Kate, this is an awful day. Nothing you wanted happened. Like you're gonna you're just like, up to the eyeballs in medical trauma. You don't wanna do this. And I saw those stupid arms up, and I was like, actually, I'd like to see if you could do it as a magic trick. So he, too, left the room, came back in, and he said, Kate, knock, knock. I'm here to remove a tube in your stomach and do a magic trick. So then he said, I'm gonna you feel a deep pinch and a hard pull. And I felt what felt like a anchor being pulled from the sea floor. And when I opened my eyes, it looked like he was holding 200 million feet of tubing, and he had my blood all over his face because he'd obviously done something wrong, but in the sweetest, saddest voice, he goes, ta da.

Sarah Burke  
I was like, Oh, I cried.

Kate Bowler  
I was laughing so hard. I was happy, like, and joyful and delighted for like, a week, and that's because in a world of no, and it could have been the same way, I figured out a way to say yes, and then magic happened, because people really

Jann Arden  
are magic. I didn't think I would hear stomach tubing today. I just didn't think I'd hear that word combo. Listen, Sarah, I want to throw it to you, because we talk about you so much on the show. And I want Sarah to weigh in on any questions

Sarah Burke  
we have. The word happiness versus the word joy is like a big part of this book for you, which I haven't read yet, and I'm hoping that we'll be able to read it in our book club, maybe, oh yeah, that we should raise this with our only chance in the generative book bag. Chance is so funny. Caitlin came up with that. It's brilliant.

Unknown Speaker  
Only jams, we focus on feet,

Sarah Burke  
the feeling of joy, versus the feeling, or supposed feeling of happiness, like describe it in your body, because there was a point in feel like it was over the last few years where, like the word joy has been annoying to me, but you're you're almost talking about happiness being annoying. Happiness is the most annoying. Thank you. Yes, so work through that with us.

Kate Bowler  
Yes, happiness in your body will feel relaxed. It will feel like things are going your way. It'll feel kind of like you can't believe so many nice things have happened all at once, and you feel kind of like a deserved, Lucky feeling like life, life's, life's gone your way. Joy is not like the annoying friend that you have that just wants to make everything great when it's not joy is like this. It's almost like you have more lung capacity. Like it feels big, it feels awake. It feels like, weirdly, you can kind of see more. You can see both the hard thing, but for a second it doesn't matter, and it feels like it bubbles up from inside of you and just lights you up. And the closest little friends to joy are, it'll feel like gratitude. You'll just want to say thank you. It'll feel hopeful, because it makes you believe that things are still possible for you. And it'll feel like delight, because it'll make you happy in a way that it wouldn't necessarily make someone else happy. It will like my my joy language is absurdity, which is why I love, like, world's largest things, or, you know, like, just dumb, ridiculous situations, so that that's how I know it is, like, lit me up from within.

Sarah Burke  
And just because you're also a podcaster, I thought that we'd throw this over to you too. Maybe you use this as a tool in making decisions about what guests you're gonna have, or what topics you're gonna cover. For happiness, it almost feels defined by society versus defined by yourself, if I'm following the thread that you were on there, whereas joy is defined by like everything encompassing in you. How does that filter into your podcast? I love

Kate Bowler  
practical wisdom, so I love like people who've gone through something. But I think what's bothering me about all the books and all the emphasis, especially in podcasting world around happiness, is I think it can be very simplistic, and I think very tiring for people who've really already tried everything. And the reason why they feel the ache inside is because they actually needed someone to start with a different kind of honesty, rather than a different kind of formula. So I do love it when people have like the Earned wisdom of still believing that lovely things are are available to them, and they want to make space in their lives for it, but they're, they're they're not interested in someone like screaming at them in an overlaying reality with with just

Jann Arden  
another solution. One thing I really want to ask you is about your friendships in your life. I'm sure that you've come up to places in your life where you might feel like I'm putting so much on my friends. I'm asking so much of them. How do you sort of navigate friendships, either old ones or new? Friends, it's always wonderful meeting new people as we get older in life. It's really one of the joyful things in my life, is to make those connections. And yeah, I just wondering if you can speak to that a little bit. Just about friends, we talk about that a lot. I mean,

Kate Bowler  
friends the great loves of our lives. And I think one of my favorite things about friends is that in the good times and the bad, they're the witnesses. They're the ones that say, Didn't your mom say it like that? Or Doesn't this remind you of and I think there's such a lovely relationship between actually, the word witness and the word suffering actually is they both mean the person that was, the person that said this was real. And the way I feel like, frankly, so deeply loved by the people who can reflect back to me what really happened and that and we so one funny thing that my best friend and I have started doing as a result is we started keeping a hilariously specific list of our resentments. We call it the list, and a friend who kind of has your list in mind. Is not only great at parties and jokes, but can also help remind you, like, are you? Are you keeping your list current? Are those? Are we gonna let go of some of the old ones? Can we add new resentments to the list? And can I help you be someone who, like talks through your list and like gets a little little movement in there? So my best friend, I have, like, an appointment for after this book to this book tour to, like, clear a couple things off the list while we can. I love that.

Jann Arden  
I think it's good to keep some grudges on paper with pencils, people that piss you off or things that you don't like. There's shared values, and there's also shared fuck I hate that I hate when that happens. And there's nothing like a friend to to discuss that. Whether you're sitting in a mall with a mall coffee and just going, you know, talking about stuff, there's something that happens. It's such a release. Caitlin, we have time for one last question, and I'm going to give

Caitlin Green  
that over to you. I have a question as, like a parent, because we both have kids, and I'm wondering how you sort of like, talk to your kids about about joy, and if you've given them any sort of pearls of wisdom about finding, like, joy in their lives and navigating, and also because, like, you've been chronically ill, and so they've had to navigate a lot in their little lives, about how, you know, having a mom with a chronic illness. So what do you how do you help them find joy?

Kate Bowler  
Well, it's funny because my I have a kid named Zach, and he, he really is sort of like a little joy monster. He his like little pulls out a little tab from a from a can from his pocket. Is like Dr Pepper, the best drink of the day. He's like, terreasuring it. And I do find that we have this, you know, like a lot of parents, do a little review at the end of the day, and we do a little prayer, and I find when I'm like, on my knees at the edge of his bed, looking in his gorgeous like big face and his little sticky forehead and his enormous froggy eyes, it is the moment where I can, like, renew my joy. I can review my deep gratitude as evidence that in that day, something really beautiful happened, and it's mostly because I'm like, trying to take it off his nightstand and be like, That's not diamonds, honey. That's glass you pick up in the yard. Do you ever just

Caitlin Green  
sometimes look your kid and start crying like you're talking about him? I'm like, I'm gonna start

Speaker 1  
to cry right now. I love you so much, and we all need tetanus shots.

Jann Arden  
Yeah? Well, I mean, I have a dog. I'm about to have step children, which is wildly wonderful at my age. But yeah, I think what resonates when both you and Caitlin are talking about your kids is that it's not about you. It's somehow when you appreciate somebody else's pure joy that you would do everything. You would drain every ounce of whatever you had in your body and hand it to them, without question, without fail, 100,000% of the time. And I think there's a lesson in that, for sure, for me, listening to you guys, is there's a selflessness that we have to kind of pay attention to and to not concentrate so much about ourselves. We know that there's so much happiness and joy and satisfaction in in the helping of others and in service. I know that sounds really kind of religious II, but I don't mean it to but anything I've ever done in my life to give somebody a hand up has left me with and it's not virtue signaling. I hate all these things that get thrown at people for doing good, things like, Oh, she's doing that because she wants everyone to know how great she is. And that's never my motivation at all. But Just hearing that about your kids, somebody else's happiness and joy, about being on the planet, that innocence, you just kind of let yourself drift outside of your physical body for just a second. It's like you feel weightless. I could just sit and talk to you and talk to you and talk to you all day. I know you've been such a comfort to Caitlin through all the stuff that she went through with her son, Sam. And you know. A Grief shared is a grief lessened somehow when we carry each other's grief along, when it gets too heavy and I love, I just love that you do that for people. Your new book joyful Anyway, congratulations on that. It's definitely going to be one of our book club choices. We got to wade through vigil right now. I've, it's not a huge book. I've only got like 40 pages left, but thank you for being with us again and again, Kate, you're just amazing, and thanks for taking time for us. I know you're extraordinarily busy.

Unknown Speaker  
Oh, you guys, anytime I love you joy. Oh, love you guys.

Jann Arden  
What? An amazing conversation. Thank you. Kate bowler, the book is available. All that information is going to be in our show notes. Don't forget about our live event. The tickets went on sale a little bit earlier for our Patreon only Jan, so you might want to think about signing up. And also, just as a personal footnote, it is my birthday today. It's the 27th of

Caitlin Green  
March. Oh, on Friday, my

Sarah Burke  
Caitlin and I both just, you should have seen our faces drop. But we're, we're realizing that our band leader here is being like, oh, on the day that this comes out, it is my birthday. So, happy birthday. Jenna RAM, happy

Caitlin Green  
future birthday from present. Caitlin, 6064,

Unknown Speaker  
years old.

Sarah Burke  
Before we wrap, how are you celebrating

Jann Arden  
this evening? I'm having my friends come over. Lisa bevercommertors is here. Of course, she's flown over. Her son will pick him up tonight. Just after midnight, he flies in from Iceland because that was part of his Christmas present to go see Banff. So we're gonna, you know, try and stay up tonight and go pick him up and but, yeah, I've got some Chinese food, a bunch of vegetarian stuff and noodles and veggies and tofus and, you know, shrimp and chicken for the people that do so eat that. But we just thought, yeah, we're gonna just do some Chinese food from signature palace in Calgary. It's excellent and awesome. I've been going there for years and years, and, yeah, just, I think we're gonna play Cards Against Humanity.

Caitlin Green  
Oh, I love that. A couple of birthday with her son coming and everything, and, like, the lead up to the wedding. And I love it. That's so nice.

Jann Arden  
Yeah, no, it's gonna be lots of fun. And, you know, we're both trying to make the effort to go back and forth. And I'm only allowed 90 days out of every 180 in Iceland. People have asked me a lot of questions about how that works. I will not be getting citizenship. You have to live there for, I think, one or two years and work in Iceland and stuff like that. There's other avenues to secure, like long term stays in Iceland. So we'll have to think about that, you know, in the next few years, but 90 out of every 180 so I got an app so as the calendar moves, the stuff that you say you traveled two weeks in April, once the calendar moves over that period, in April, those two weeks are gone. So you kind of have a constant Refresh and Reset. It's just a moving target. But, man, they asked me every single time, you know about the 90 days? And I'm like, Yes, I do. I've got 31 days. Well, we're gonna

Sarah Burke  
have to do a live podcast in Iceland next so Yes, that'll be a work visa for all three

Jann Arden  
of us. Okay, okay. Well, you know, how fun would that be, even if there's like nine of us sitting there, that would be really, really awesome. We could do it in thortis

Unknown Speaker  
living room. Great. Just

Caitlin Green  
do it from in front of an active volcano.

Jann Arden  
Why not? Yeah, there's, there's a few those at any given time. Anyway, we do have lots of fun things coming up. May 5 is a reminder of our show, and we would love to sell this out and move into a bigger theater. That's just a reminder there that that is definitely a possibility. In the meantime, we have some voice notes from our fans. Well, I

Sarah Burke  
hope they're wishing you Happy birthday. Here's your first one. Good morning, ladies.

Speaker 2  
This is a wedding singers audition. Oh, the sound

Speaker 3  
of the wind through my heart makes me glad for all the ones that never know my name, Jan.

Speaker 2  
I wasn't sure if you and Thor just were auditioning wedding singers, but, you know, I just thought I took a chance and kind of throw my voice into the ring. It's pretty good. I hope all three of you ladies

Jann Arden  
have a great week. What's your name? Send me your agent's number when you audition, make sure you leave your rap sheet.

Sarah Burke  
Jan will get back to you. That was wonderful.

Speaker 4  
Hi, Jen. This is James milash. I'm taking my wife to your concert in Windsor, Ontario, in June. She's turning 70. We'll be sitting in the fifth row. You facing the crowd to be on the right hand side. It would be awesome if you could just give her a shout out for her birthday. I would really appreciate. It. I'm just gonna say

Jann Arden  
James's wife, and I will do my fucking best to remember James.

Sarah Burke  
I'll put an outlook reminder.

Jann Arden  
Sarah's gonna do a reminder for me and the day of the show. She's gonna say James's and his wife are there. I will do my best. 70 is a milestone, and 70 is the new 40. Everybody knows that.

Speaker 5  
Everybody knows that. Good morning, ladies. Kelly from Sault, Ste Marie, here again, your podcast about friendships really hit home. My grandmother, growing up, used to say, never lose your friends. Your friends will always be there for you no matter what that is so true. I surround myself with such positive, amazing people. I have friends from elementary school, from high school, and most recently, the last two years, I've met the best bunch of people that I work with that have given me such joy. They actually for my birthday last year, Jan got me a cameo from you, because they know how much I love you and they love me. I have had some friendships that have crossed, some boundaries that I've had to end, and that were very difficult, but it was better for me, and those friendships that are near and dear to me are the best things. They make me smile. They give me happiness, and I love my friends.

Sarah Burke  
That was Kelly talking about our Patreon talk last week,

Jann Arden  
yes, so yeah, we had a quite a conversation. And you can go, you can sign up for Patreon, and you can listen to all our content this last year and a half, 20 months. And we do, we talk about some things that are really different from our obviously, our terrestrial podcast that's just got no pay wall on it, but it's worth the five bucks. But thank you, Kelly for those comments. Is that it for voice notes? That's pretty damn great. One more. One more.

Speaker 6  
Hi Jan Caitlin and Sarah. This is Michelle from Arizona. I just wanted to first say, I hope you guys know that not all of us in America or the USA should say, are following this craziness going on here. I would love to be Canadian at this moment, but anyway, I just wanted to confirm that that not all of us believe. In fact, I feel like there's a lot of us that don't, and there are a lot I hope that we're on the right side of history. But outside of that, I just wanted to say I am a huge Murdoch mystery fan, and I saw that you're going to be on this season, and I cannot wait to see your episode. But on top of that, the reason I rediscovered you after 90s, the 90s, living in Michigan and right on the border of Canada, and getting a lot of Canadian influence in my life, but seeing you on corner gas. I discovered corner gas during covid, and saw the episode with you on it, and heard a blip of insensitive and it was like, wait, I loved that song. Oh, my God. So I Googled you, and here I am all these years later, watching every episode of your podcast and listening. And anyway, I just love you guys, and I hope that you know that there are a lot of Americans that do not support what's going on here, as much as it's frustrating for you guys, especially, we're embarrassed by what's going on, quite literally. So anyway, thank you guys. Love you.

Jann Arden  
Bye. Don't you worry about it. We know that, and the tides are turning. But thank you so much for your support. Thanks for listening from Arizona. We love hearing from fans from all over the world, but yeah, thanks for listening today, before we wrap what?

Sarah Burke  
Yes, if you've been watching on YouTube, I just feel the need to clarify that Jan is drinking a non alcoholic white claw, and she is not back on the bandwagon. I saw the white claw logo, and I was like, oh boy, it's

Jann Arden  
zero white claw. This is so good. I found it at Costco. Costco. Feel free to sponsor us. Caitlin, you. You said you

Sarah Burke  
wanted to talk about something on Patreon. I'm going to

Caitlin Green  
explain a dating term that has horrified me, called telesexual,

Speaker 7  
okay, well, telling me now, telling me now. Totally. Do you.