Connection, Pleasure and Valentine’s Day Pressure with Cynthia Loyst

 
hello everybody. Welcome to the Jann Arden podcast and show it. It is Jann Arden. I'm here with Sarah Burke and Caitlin green. We have a wonderful guest today, and it's so fitting because it's Valentine's Day week, whatever you want to call it month. Some people celebrate it the entire month of February. Cynthia Loyst , if you're watching on YouTube, you can see her little top that's got hearts on it. Let me tell you a little bit about this woman. Personally, she's one of the smartest, most empathic, entrepreneurial, compassionate, kick ass women that I know, period full stop, that's my intro. Just as Cynthia's friend, she is the co host of the social in season 13. She is a person who writes about pleasure. She's written books about pleasure. Finding Your Pleasure is a website that she also has if you want to go check that out. Cynthia is a dear friend of mine. We have been on some adventures in our lives. It was even rumored that she and I were a fang, anyway, please say hello to the amazing Cynthia loist. Oh, thank you for having me. You guys. I'm so happy to share this space with all of you. And Jan, like, honestly, could sing your praises for ages. We could just do like, an hour long podcast, just talking about what we admire in each other. Actually, maybe that's a good idea for a podcast. It's just women just talking about how much they adore each other. Yes, well, we need to have that kind of camaraderie in this day and age, and I know full well, just in conversations that I've had with my girlfriends over the last few years, in particular, of how important these relationships are. And maybe you can speak to that. Yeah, it's great to have an intimate relationship with a man and have a partner and even have a girlfriend and all those things. But there's something about your platonic female friends and sometimes male friends that are so, so so important to our happy lives. Yes, I mean, I think the reason why I even got interested in sexual health because my sister got unintentionally pregnant when I was a teenager, and I saw the way I was raised in a Catholic environment, nobody talked about sex, and so I was always curious about it, but felt there was no place for my questions, not in the church, not in like it was very anti feminist as well. I had all these Inklings that there was something wrong with all this silence. And then when she got pregnant, it was like, Oh, this is proof positive of what happens when you don't talk about that. And so sexual health became, like, my kind of like reason for living, and I became that friend who was answering all these questions. And then I went and I got my sex educator certificate from the University of Michigan, and I made documentaries about sexuality for a long time. So therein lies my main interest. But of course, when you're talking about sex, you cannot talk about it in isolation, no matter how much people want to say that, you know, oh, you know, give me five easy ways to spice up my relationship, or all these types of things. If you don't look at the way that we connect with other people on a fundamental level, you will never figure out that piece. So to go back to even platonic relationships, I think that they are so vital, and I think that there is every type of relationship that we have, whether it's a co worker, a colleague, a friend or a lover, it has a particular alchemy, and it also stirs up a lot of deep seated stuff inside of ourselves that come from our early relationships with our caregivers. And so for better or worse, if you're ever asking yourself, like, Why do I feel so safe and comfortable immediately with somebody that tells you something probably about what that person relates to from your childhood. And conversely, if somebody really, really starts to upset you or make you feel a certain way, that can also be early childhood stuff. So we can talk a little bit about attachment styles, if we want to get into that, because I think it's a fascinating realm for discussion. And I feel like right now, in Tiktok and on social media, everyone's talking about it, so Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about relationships and how those

Unknown Speaker  4:04  
present themselves in our lives. Well, like so what's fascinating about this attachment style theory is it's, I think, a lens and a window into how we both handle conflict and connection. And I think it's not necessarily like the penultimate guide to figuring out yourself. But I do feel like as we start to break this down, you're gonna be like, Oh, that's me, oh, that's my partner. Oh, I've been like that. So there's basically four attachment styles. The first one is securely attached people. It is the gold standard. It is what we all are aiming for. It's the people we want to date. It's the people we want to become, people who are securely attached. Generally speaking, had really, really present caregivers, consistent caregivers. Might have been just one caregiver as well, but those people made a model for how to get into conflict, how to resolve conflict, how to be emotionally available and how to be present. They.

Unknown Speaker  5:00  
Showed love in a way that felt safe and consistent, and so those people as adults, are able to communicate comfortably. They're able to articulate boundaries. They're able to handle closeness as well as independence. So this is, again, that's a securely attached person, but under the umbrella of insecure attachment, there are three main types. So the first one is anxious attachment. So it's the classic overthinker, somebody who often feels deeply, deeply insecure. If they don't hear back from their text right away, they might start to spiral. A lot of women fall into this category, I hate to gender this, but where it's like, you early on in a relationship and you start to, you know, feel like, Oh, I'm into them, and they're into me, but they didn't, you know, call me that one time, or, you know, they haven't responded to my text quickly enough. Oh, my God, what's happening. And it might seem like they're turning into kind of like an insecure clinger, but in fact, it really is just a person's trying to get their nervous system recalibrated. And where this comes from is they may have had caregivers who were inconsistent. So they might have had like a caregiver who was loving, but then sometimes really distracted or overwhelmed or edgy, at times, just a little bit of inconsistency. So what this did was it told a person as a young person that they didn't know when they didn't know when they were going to get love again, so they developed a little bit of anxiousness. Second one under the insecure attachment style, is avoidant attachment. Oh, Jesus. This is the classic lone wolf. Jan, I wonder if I was gonna say you're so I feel like this is Jan, no, no, please. Any any insights? Yeah, okay, soon as you said, I'm like, I think this is probably going to be me, a little bit of me too, little bit okay. So avoidance is, it is kind of the classic lone wolf. They desire closeness, but their interest in having independence sort of trumps everything. When they were growing up, their caregiving might have looked like caregivers who didn't encourage emotional discussions, they were told to, sort of like, you know, tamp down their emotions. And they did that for self preservation, and also because they just felt like they couldn't be validated. And so as a result, when they're older, a lot of times, these people can seem distant. They can seem cold. It's not that they necessarily are, it's just that. Again, they've learned that they need to rely on themselves above all else. Okay, we here for the still. Okay,

Unknown Speaker  7:28  
the last one, the fourth one, is something known as disorganized attachment. So this generally is sort of the person you've met who's kind of chaos or a roller coaster. So they're hot, they're cold, they're on, they're off. And this came from a lot of times, a bit of a traumatic, maybe childhood where there was a lot of volatility in the home. There may have been, even been abuse, but not necessarily. And as a result, these people, again, they sort of tend to, how have you met these people where it's like, if things are kind of calm, that's when they start to get uncomfortable and things are safe, that's when you hear those people who you've said, like, you know, I met this guy and he was just kind of just, he was all right on paper, but he was just kind of also boring. And because they can't, they like to have this up and down. It makes them oddly feel kind of safe, but they that can be a really hard person to be in a relationship with. So keep in mind, as I'm saying, all this and you're thinking, who am I? Who is everyone? We might see bits and pieces of ourselves in these and they're not fixed. We're like computer programs that can always receive updates. We can always change so if you want, I can give you a couple of scenarios, or you had a question. Go for it. Well, I think describing the lone wolf, it's so interesting that you say this, and there's some other things that sort of are part of that for me, and that is when I was drinking. I think that was very much me, but I really relate to the first one. I think I'm incredibly reliable. I think I'm completely there and able to regulate self, regulate myself, and I don't think I would be in a relationship now, if I hadn't have done all the work that I've done in the last 10 years, because I really was that lone wolf. I I wanted to be in a relationship, but I wanted my independence, and I wanted my secret little life, and I wanted to be able to drink and I wanted to be able to go do my shit. And so I take that responsibility. I was not great to be in a relationship with. I'm not going to take all the responsibility because I was obviously with other people. But I think for the avoidant type, and I think what you've done brilliantly, if that is your, you know, your predominant type, or was your predominant type, I think it is absolutely true that maybe there were, again, I think substance abuse can come into those things as ways to heal, same with avoidant types, kind of like make them feel safe. And I think what you've done brilliantly is again, taken time away. You've actually worked on yourself, and then you found a partnership that actually matched where you were becoming more secure. You knew enough of you did enough self inquiry to figure out.

Unknown Speaker  10:00  
Is it that I need? How do I draw safe boundaries? How do I maintain my independence and also feel good about intimacy? So you really, really thought about these things. So somebody who is listening, who's like, Oh, I feel like I might be an avoidant type.

Unknown Speaker  10:12  
This is the way it might play out. You're in a situation somebody is demanding closeness from you, but you feel this kind of panic, and you kind of want to get away. It is the work to sort of just like, stay in that space a tiny beat longer, when things start to feel like, Oh, I'm worried I'm getting smothered, or I'm worried that I'm losing my identity. It's like trying to get come with curiosity, with all of those, what is being stirred inside of me? Where is this coming from? How many of your friends have said these things to you? Jen, like as you were coming out of it.

Unknown Speaker  10:43  
I mean a lot, I think people are very surprised by that I'm even in a relationship, because I talked about not being in one for so long, but I did meet somebody who also values their own individuality and travels with her work and has her own life and her own home and have children, and you know, she's got a lot of responsibility, and she also really values the time that we have together, but it's definitely my equal. It's definitely someone who

Unknown Speaker  11:14  
can let me be me, and knows what is important to me and values what's important to me. Like I'm blown away every day, every day I wake up and go, this cannot be a real person. And I think we all lose sight of that. I think we all eventually give up going, we can't have all the things that we want. We can't have our list, our dream list, of things in a person that we have to settle and maybe you can speak to that too. Cynthia is I don't think that's true. Like I have not had to strike one thing off my list and say, Well, it's good enough. I think I've done that in the past, but I really am so surprised by

Unknown Speaker  11:49  
by being my best self. I've met, met someone who's also their best self and and I was able to say who I'm going to show this person is good enough. I'm not going to make somebody up. I'm not going to try and exaggerate myself and be like, Oh, I really want to be attractive to this person. And I didn't do any of that. I'm like, I went into this. I'm just going to be who I am. And if that's not what she wants, and that's okay. And it was amazing. Do you think that you would have recognized each other's values. Had you met like a decade ago? Never interesting. So what has changed in both of your lives? Would you say that this is the perfect timing? Because timing is a huge thing as well. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I can't speak for thortis, but for me, it's, it really is being in the trees for a long, long time and and I didn't date Cynthia. You know that? I mean, I think I had one little blip in there, and it was very short lived, and but for the most part, I was just like, Oh, God, I'm so not ready to do anything. I need to just be with my friends. Like, getting back to where we started, this conversation is the importance of friends like yourself and, you know, my Lisa and Bev and, you know, obviously the girls that are on this show with us right now are very important to me, and we've talked so much about stuff. And so I think when you realize who you are to the people around you, and I knew what kind of a person that I was and that I was a person of my word,

Unknown Speaker  13:13  
and that just took time because I wasn't I used to always drop the ball, and I never did what I said I was going to do when I was drinking, but Thoris and I just talk about meeting at certain points in our lives. And you know, Thoris will say we would have lit the fucking world on fire. We would have been like explosive. We would have been in jail. We would have been like you and I would have absolutely torn each other from limb to limb, like it would have been a very short and brief encounter that just would have been explosive. And, you know, because she was, yeah, oh, just terrible and, and, like she always says, this was the time, this was the time for you and the time for me, and we were just both. It was at exactly that moment. I always talk about it being very mathematical and quantum physics. And part of, you know, our different part of our consciousness that enables us to to see other people and to be vulnerable and to walk into things. And I'm not going to say that I wasn't afraid, because I was very afraid. Yes, it's understandable. It's terrifying. Relationships are not for the faint of heart, as somebody who's been in one for almost 26 years, I feel like I've been in about five different relationships in that time and and in some ways it's funny, because I have a niece who's like, 19 or 20, and she's in her beginning stages of relationships, and sometimes I'm like, Oh, wow. Be interesting to go back to that time. You know, if you could only have the wisdom that you do now and be but then I'm just like, No, I actually really appreciate also the work of relationships, because it's the work of our lives. Like it is hard, sometimes it is hard to peel back. You enter parenting into the mix too. Caitlin, I'm curious about your like.

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
It adds in a whole nother development. Develop adds in a whole nother dimension. And part of it is also because you start to unearth stuff that you didn't even know you had. For better or worse, it can stir up all kinds of I feel like ancient childhood wounds,

Unknown Speaker  15:17  
your parenting decisions, like there are things aspects that come up that you you don't get preparation for, and so you just have to kind of hold on and try to figure out. I was listening the other day about, like, this idea of finding compromises, and that, in a way, that's kind of a bad idea in relationships, because then there's always a winner and a loser. And power dynamics are an interesting thing, because you as equals, you want to come in, but when you have a situation where you don't agree on something, you're somebody is always going to have to either bend or you really try to come up with a solution together. That is something that is like, Oh, how do we do that? No one gives us training for that. We grow up in parenting relationships where they just tell us, this is right, and this is the way you do it, and do you do it? Now, that's the way I was raised, certainly. So now I'm trying to raise my son differently, or we are, and then also raise each other differently, to make sure I'm never saying this is the way you do that, but trying to come with that curiosity piece of like, why are you doing that? That way?

Unknown Speaker  16:24  
What are you doing over there, you know, and trying to actually grow and learn together. Yeah, easy. So much of parenting, in my experience, has been re parenting yourself. And I really do feel like, Thank goodness I'm in therapy

Unknown Speaker  16:38  
throughout the whole thing, and it has been incredibly helpful to have like that space to talk about all the things that come up in your mind and and how you place them and categorize things. Is very helpful to me. But to your point on compromises, I think a big deal that I look back on in my unsuccessful past relationships was that I did often feel that I was in a relationship with a partner where they would desire for there to be a winner and a loser at the end of an argument. And I think one of the great things about my husband is that I never you know if someone was right or wrong or had done whatever. I never felt like he was keeping track. I never felt like he his end goal was to prove that he was right and I was wrong. We may disagree on things, but I think coming from that sort of feeling of partnership, and the spirit of like partnership together was really important and very attractive because, because it does calm your nervous system, you do get the chance to feel safe with that person. And that is ultimately attractive, and I think it creates such a more intimate bond with someone when you're like, oh, I can actually trust you, even if we get into a fight, even if things go sideways, it's not going to kind of be the be all and end all. I think in a lot of past relationships, there were so many arguments that I felt like were unnecessarily high stakes. And I just liked being in a relationship where it was much lower stakes all the time. I

Unknown Speaker  18:00  
I,

Unknown Speaker  18:04  
Jan, I'm curious, are you aware that right now there's a huge trend going of people who are choosing to, like, live apart, like, never get together, like, never live in the same place? No, I, I didn't know that. There is more and more evidence to suggest that, like, I think the way you're doing it, it's not always going to work in every situation. Like, it'd be hard to raise a child and do it, you know, but I think there is something really powerful. There's a time and an age. I had a girlfriend who was once dating a guy in Egypt, and she was living here, and she wanted to have a big family. And I was like, I don't know how you're going to make this work. Because, like, one he never wants to leave Egypt, and you don't want to move there. So how is this ever you're kind of heading, but it's different the age and stage you're at. You must have made sort of rules about, how are we going to remain connected and trusting with this distance? I mean, we've talked about it a lot, obviously, being in Iceland and in Western Canada. It's not a horrible distance, and certainly not Egypt, but we always have a plan. So Thornes and I always talk about a plan. So I was able to go for two weeks, and one of those weeks we had the kids, and so being a step parent is exciting for me. I think I have a lot to offer. You know, she has a 16 year old son, and she has seven year old twins, and she's very much the parent. I'm not the parent. I think being a step parent or a bonus parent, as Meredith Shaw says, is really exciting for me. The kids really like me. And, you know, I'm not in the point where I'm

Unknown Speaker  19:33  
thinking that, you know, people ask me all the time, are you going to move there? And I'm not. She's not moving here and I'm not moving there. She can't. She shares custody with her ex husband, and they go back every week, but like, she will be coming here on the 11th for that week. We always have a plan, and then I'll go back, like the first week of March, and then she's coming back and actually bringing her 16 year old son as part of his Christmas present, coming back the last week of March.

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
During spring break for him, and so we always have a plan, but we both recognize, like right now, she's in Helsinki, probably speaking to the Finnish government about how to inform policy or something. I don't know. I mean, I'm making that up right now, but so her work is very international, and she's doing stuff like that all the time. But one thing that we do know is that we appreciate each other's jobs and how important my home is here, and everything that I've built up, but now we have another home. I have another home there that I love going there. I've never been in water so much in my life, but I'm glad to hear you say that it's it's something that seems more possible to people because she and I are not living the kind of lives that our parents lived, where you immediately buy a little house and white picket fence and raise kids and you know it, it's actually a real adventure. And I'm not saying that it's always going to be easy, but technology has also changed the way we go forward. I speak to her every day for hours. You can see her. I can see her all the time. I said good night to her. She She's nine hours ahead in Helsinki. So it's just it has made it so different. It's like this. It's like having a conversation. I can sit down and have a meal with her when I'm away. And we both love our jobs so much, and we're cheering each other on, and I cannot fathom how that will grow exponentially because of having that kind of support. She never wants to drag me down. She said from the beginning, I never, ever want to get in the way of you and what you do ever and I feel the same way about what she does. I would never ask anyone to give up things for me. And I have been asked, you know, in other relationships, to to make choices, and that just left me in an impossible situation. Yeah, but I think it's going to be okay. I think as I get older, you know, I might be there for months at a time, yep, and come back here. But I don't think either of us think that that's

Unknown Speaker  21:59  
necessary. It's great to have the condo in Toronto as well. Yeah, so I feel extremely grateful. Yeah, it's good. I want to talk to you more about I mean, we talked about this a little bit in your intro. What would you call it like? Just the intimacy work that you're doing. What do you label it as? I mean, I think I'm interested in human connection ultimately. And I think the reason why I become really interested in pleasure has to do with my background. I think that pleasure, I think, I don't know if I've said this to you before, but when I was growing up, pleasure was really, really frowned upon. It immediately conjured up something highly sexual, automatically and and it was seen as this kind of like dirty cousin to happiness, just this slippery slope to ruin. And there was a lot of shame attached to the idea of indulgence. And I don't even just mean in a sexual realm, it was like, you know, don't eat too much, because then you'll be in this sort of like association with body. Like anything that was pleasurable seemed to be like, you know, watch out. The model of a perfect woman was, and I think in many ways, still is today, someone who exhibits restraint, self control, minimizes themselves, both audibly, like doesn't say too much, doesn't express too much, doesn't take up too much space. So I became really interested in this idea of pleasure, and it still is a word that triggers a lot, and I still wrestle with it. I think the reason why I became so interested in it is because I do wrestle with it. I do prioritize pleasure. I would say that by some people's eyes, maybe I'm a bit selfish about the choices that I make in my life, like I get up every day and I I journal every day religiously. I myself. I have a ritual around my coffee, I have a ritual around yoga. Then I make a lunch, like a Tasmanian devil for my son, and like, I pack up all my stuff, and then I go, Jason always does the pickups and drop offs at least while he's in town. And I go to a sauna and a cold plunge, where a place I've just decided, okay, I'd rather have this. I'd rather work it at home and not have a gym membership and make this my gym. This is the same amount of money. And so I made that a choice, where every day, even if only can get in for a half an hour, I go in because it completely it's indulgent, it's sensual. It has transformed me. And I think women we know statistically put themselves last, especially when kids come into the picture, and they end up taking on emotional labor. And there are so many things where I think part of it in straight relationships is that men don't observe and see what needs to get done. But I also think women also can then fall into these traps where they're seeing other people's lives on Instagram, and they think, oh my god, this is what a good mom looks like, or this is what a good home looks like. Honestly, there's a garbage bag right to my right on the floor

Unknown Speaker  24:48  
right now. It's filled with some clothes that's gonna go to, you know, Goodwill or something like that eventually. But I could have made that a priority this weekend. Guess what? I didn't. Instead, I chose to go out for a walk with my kid in the snow like i.

Unknown Speaker  25:00  
I'm always trying to calibrate, okay, what? What do I need? And I think more women need to really tune in to that deep inner voice. And it's something I learned when I went on burnout leaf, but since then, it's just, I mean, pleasure has been the guiding force. I think of my life, that's what I was going to ask you about so because it's a conversation that comes up at, like a lot of my girls dinners, and just like in life, as we've gotten older, because I know that you talked very publicly about your experience with burnout. I have a lot of girlfriends who will sort of like, rake themselves over the coals for being like. My sex drive has declined like and I think a lot of it, when we talk about it, I feel as though maybe they're burnt out and because they're experiencing this feeling of being like, disconnected from their own body, and it's because the to do list in their head never shuts up. It's because they don't have any time to take for themselves, to like, feel do things that would make them feel attractive. And that could just be like, Could just be going for a walk, but it could also just be like, going for a cold punch, whatever those moments are for you. And because they've lost touch with that, and they've existed solely for so many people, the burnout, I think, is impacting their sex life too. Now absolutely, I also think we have this completely misguided idea around sex drive. And there's this idea presented to us from like Hollywood and romance novels and early relationships, that it's gonna, like, overwhelm us like a tidal wave, or that we'll just be walking around be like, Ooh, I'm in the mood today, and seldom in long term relationships, is that the way that works, particularly for women, there's two types of desire, right? Spontaneous desire and responsive desire. Spontaneous desire is the one that I just described. Responsive desire, which much more women will go through. They go through both, and they're both normal, but particularly in long term relationships, it's that you are already in the process of doing something sensual, and it might be intimate connection with your partner, but then all of a sudden it's like, oh, then the desire is born out of that, and you're 100% right. Caitlin, like the only way that that comes is if we prioritize it, if we give ourselves space to feel good in our body, to feel good in our relationships. There's also this great analogy that a woman named Emily nagoski, she wrote a book called, come as you are, she talks a lot about we're almost like a car. So there's the things that we can try to rev our engine. So that might be things like a cold plunge or a bath or erotica or a sex toy, or all those types of things that might like get us going. But that's irrelevant. If our foot is on the brake, and so our brake might be I'm depressed. I resent my partner. There's, you know, for some people, it's like my kid is in the other room. I can hear them. So the process of actually getting turned on is figuring out how to not only rev your engine, but take your foot off the brake. So that requires, like, I remember this one time, early on, I just given birth, I think, you know, I don't know, maybe, like, I was a year in, and Jason and I had a window of time, like the baby was sleeping, and I was like, okay, like he went to go in the shower, and what did I do? I opened up, like my phone to look at baby milestones. And I caught myself. I was like, Oh, this is not, this is not erotic at all. Like I am setting myself up for failure here. Why would I first go to this? I gotta pull out something else to get myself in the mood get to watch heated rivalry. Well, yeah, that didn't exist at that time, but you're 100%

Unknown Speaker  28:15  
right. I'm the only person in the world that hasn't watched heated rivalry. Oh my gosh, Jan, treat yourself watching it is no, no, I will. I literally just haven't had the time. I love the fact that we have a prime minister that can embrace one of the lead characters and have his leg, you know, held in his arms and talking about it in reference to what Canada is and how we embrace love and this is the place to be, and he found an angle to it. Sorry that this is kind of a sidebar, but still talking about Prime Minister that's so willing to talk about sexuality and love in all its forms. It's such a great story. I just think for the moment that we're in right now, because of our relationship with the US and everything that's been going on to have this show that has become the most talked about show on a global level, that was Canadian, born and made, and that Jacob Tierney, the showrunner for that, he actually shopped it around to the US, and they kept on telling him, well, you're gonna have to, like, change. It's a little bit too risque. You're gonna have to and he refused. And so brought it back to Canada. It was made, and look at the success. So the undercurrent is the story of Canadian grit, and also, like our values. And I think that that's, it's just like it makes me filled with pride, like it's just so great. You know, we would be remiss not to ask you about the pressures of Valentine's Day. And I say this because I am going into my first Valentine's Day with my partner. I don't know what to do. I have some ideas she's going to be here, and what do I do? And there's all the sort of the traditional stuff that we're used to. But do you have any advice for people that are in 50 Year marriages or at 20 years or.

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
Just started dating someone like Valentine's is the touted as the most romantic day of the year. Help us. Cynthia loist, help us. I kind of resist all of that pressure. I feel like it ends up feeling. I think many people feel it's very commercialized as a result. But you do kind of have to know your partner's love language. Do you know thortis general level. Yes, I think she is an extremely sensual person. She loves to do things like, I think her go to if she wanted to do something really great, would be to go to thermal spas, would be to get into water, would be to have, like, a delicious meal, okay? And, you know, like those things, she's really easy. She doesn't it's not things. It's not it's not stuff. Okay? It's not stuff. So there's, like, the love languages, I think people are familiar with them, which is like, either acts of service, gifts, touch or like sex, words of affirmation. And am I missing one of them anyway? Let's just say that that's, I think I'm missing one of them, but whatever. So it sounds to me like she's more maybe experiential. Is that one of the love language? Yeah, no. I mean, I think it is doing something and definitely being together, and, you know, just stargazing, or, you know, going on a great walk, and obviously, obviously intimacy and things like that. But it's not, it's not jewelry, it's not flowers. Now, for the most part, it's not stuff like that. I'm not worried about that, but it's just like now I need to think about where the hell is, like a thermal spa around here. We've got lots of hot springs. We've got, like, the radium hot springs. There's, I think there's hot springs in Banff. I got to make some phone calls. One is the one that that we were forgetting is quality time. And it sounds like that would be tortoises. That's sort of, that's exactly, Oh, definitely, especially when you do have a long distance relationship, yeah. Oh, for sure, time, time is paramount. And you know, because of that, we generally don't socialize a lot. Have you written her a song? Jan, I feel like that would be, I have written her a couple of songs now, okay, well, they're just starting down that road. To me, that would be like, I think the most romantic thing that you could do next to all. I mean, it sounds like every day is kind of Valentine's Day in your world. I think for people who are, who are like, just sort of struggling, I think do something. That's what I would say, is that even if you think your partner doesn't really care and isn't a big deal. I think you just choose one thing, and it doesn't have to be going out and trying to make a reservation. Oftentimes, going to restaurants can be kind of a nightmare on on Valentine's Day or those big things, but you can never go wrong by picking up like I for so for example, with Jason, like I know he doesn't like cut flowers. He he feels like there's something really

Unknown Speaker  32:44  
I don't know wrong. And I get counter intuitive about cutting a flower. They're dying. They're like, you buy it, you put in a thing, and they're instantly kind of dying. So yes, I think for him, if he was going to give something for me, knowing I do love flowers, he should get me a plant, right? But then I have to keep it alive. But like, I don't think you can go wrong. I also, I'm somebody who I like lingerie and so like, you can never go wrong with because to me, this opens up a whole world of, like, role playing as a lingerie person. I do. I love them, but I think writing a handwritten note like, you don't have to do. What about like, Sarah for Dan? What about, what about Caitlin for like, Kyle. Like, okay, tell me when it's not shoppers, Drug Mart fucking box shaped shitty chocolates. Like, can we all agree on that? Dan, okay, he just got out of the shower. But what is your language? Love Language, physical touch. Okay, well, then you got your night hand out for you. That's easy. That's easy.

Unknown Speaker  33:43  
I think for me, I also need words of affirmation. I'm like, a bit of both. So Dan needs to listen to this. Words of affirmation. You got to either write something or send a really nice voice note early on in the day. Like, that's an easy way. Maybe you're you would like him to like to read something together. I also love I have a whole collection, Jan, I feel like you do too, of cards, like connection cards. You can get these from anywhere. This one's called Connect. Remember why this is from the School of Life. Esther Perel has a whole bunch of them. Which are the where should we begin? Cards? These are amazing for creating conversation, and some of them are like you can do with even colleagues or friends. And other ones are just spicy, like loved ones that would get you going, and then for him going, like, yeah, something that's more like physical choice. I feel like I need a refresh on what Caitlin and Kyle even think about Valentine's Day. Oh, um, I think historically, not much.

Unknown Speaker  34:41  
Only just because, like, like Cynthia outlined, we had so many experiences where you pay an arm and a leg for reservation at like, the hottest restaurant, you're surrounded by a table of twos. God forbid they have a fixed price menu. Everyone has a single flower. I just was like, We are not part of something that is in any way unique or personal to us. It is super manufactured.

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
Structured, and thus, like, not hot. So I think now, I mean, now the only thing we do is we do a tradition of, like, a low stakes dinner reservation at one of our favorite local spots that is, like, not fancy, and we go with will. So will comes out for, like, a little Valentine's dinner with us. But my husband is 100% physical touch. That's not rocket science over there. So I'm like, for me, I would like, I do like a gift, okay, but it doesn't need to be like, fancy. But I think thoughtful something, yeah, like, I can think back on, like, you know, a few gifts he's given me. And again, like, they don't have to be fancy, but if it's something that I really enjoy, and then I think of him when I'm wearing it, like a really soft scarf or a really beautiful scent. I think those things I do really like them. I also am a physical touch gal, so like, we're well matched in that way, there's a great exercise, which normally is done alongside with a sexual therapist. So, you know, take this with a grain of salt. But I like the spirit of this, because a lot of times people can feel like, if their partner's love language is physical touch, and they're touched out because they have a new child, or whatever. They're just they feel like too much pressure for okay, I guess I got to have sex on Valentine's Day, and that can feel a lot. So a great exercise from Masters and Johnson. It's called sensate focus. And basically one person lies down and they are going to be the receiver of the touch, and it starts not allowed to touch genitals at all. You're after touching like, you know, and there's no kissing, like you're just actually touching and trying to get a read on what kinds of things are actually pleasurable and what kinds of things, because sometimes, even if you've been together for a long time, you might go into certain patterns, and there might be times when you're like, Oh, I never told them early on that I don't really love it When they do this, so you can slow everything down and really get a feedback going. Set the music right? Like, put on a candle, you know, just set this tone. And, like, I love the idea of sex actually being off the table. This might not be the best idea for Valentine's Day, but what it does is it Stokes a fire as well to go back to desire. It's like, how can we do this a few times on our next few date nights where we don't actually have sex, and let it build that kind of tension, that kind of curiosity, that almost rediscovery of each other's bodies, and then, you know, again, and also giving pleasure, and letting somebody just receive that pleasure, because a lot of times again, we might get into our own heads being like, okay, I guess I gotta reciprocate on this, you know, activity. But if you know, if the rules are, you are actually, for this next half hour or whatever, you're just the receiver of pleasure, and you don't have to do anything, it's quite powerful to try out, yeah. And it also speaks to, I think, like people, like the the need for, like, longing, especially in long term relationships, it goes out the window. And again, not just because I'm obsessed with the show, all roads don't have to lead back to heated rivalry. Yet, for me, they do. They can't. Caitlin would like that on the TV in the background during Valentine's Day? Yeah, no, I want to watch that alone first.

Unknown Speaker  38:00  
But I feel like that's what the show captured really well. And I think that's why so many straight women really connected with it was because this feeling of longing and not being able to be together, and then having to kind of like, sneak around, and then the payoff of that, I think that can be missing in long term relationships, because you do just get stuck in the muck and the mire of day to day life. So I really like that exercise. So on the keeping of longing, here's a suggestion for you, because this is something that actually comes from my podcast co host Josie dye, and I've never tried this out, but I do like the spirit of it, which is that you meet up separately with your partner at a hotel bar, and you kind of act like strangers and flirt. We have done that. Oh, Jan, okay, well, it was so fun. We got a hotel room. Actually, see, I love this idea. We met.

Unknown Speaker  38:47  
I know she wouldn't mind me talking about this, because it was so fun.

Unknown Speaker  38:58  
We met at a hotel bar restaurant, and just sort of acted like we had never met each other before, and had dinner and did the whole, you know, I'll give you the key to my room to come up. I might knock, I might answer,

Unknown Speaker  39:16  
very huge rivalry. It was so fun. And we we stay. We stayed overnight. There it was. It was really lovely. They there's a thermal spa like in the hotels you can, like, literally, go to the locker room and have and be in hot water on the outside of the fucking roof of this hotel in downtown Reykjavik. It's a thermal spa like this place is nuts. But anyway, I, without giving saying too much about it. It was unbelievably interesting. It was very it was it was amazing. It was an amazing experience, and one that I'll never forget. We still talk about it. I love this. I love it. And it's like it's bringing playback Ester Perel, who's this incredible therapist from New York.

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
And she, she often says, like, try to think of sex, not as a thing that you do, but a place that you go. And obviously that requires safety, and that requires, you know, a good relationship and all that. But it's thing to try being conceptualizing more of as opposed to just thinking, like, Okay, I got this thing on my to do list that thinking about, is it a kind of adventure, or the filled with play is much more appealing, I think. Well, I learned a lot about her too, yeah, because I asked a lot of questions that I hadn't asked. Well, this is the thing. And it was just like, it was just so interesting. And, I mean, we're both very theatrical. I mean, she's a playwright and an actor, and obviously there's, there's advantages to the kind of jobs that we both have, but anyone could do it like if you're willing to sit in your discomfort for the first few minutes, it was hard for us to go back to her. And I yes the next day, because we went to sleep like that

Unknown Speaker  40:56  
method, and when we woke up, I think, I think was either her or me. And I think, I think she said, Are we us? I said, we're I said, Baby, we're us.

Unknown Speaker  41:08  
We have some listener questions I don't want to forget about Yeah, let's do that. Yeah. These are from our only Jan's

Unknown Speaker  41:16  
So Janice, how do you handle anxious attachment for Valentine's Day, specifically the desire to make the day special. Yet anxiety triggers worries that what you do will not be enough. How do you reassure yourself? I think that's all about regulation. So if you feel that anxiousness coming up about the pressure, or whatever it is, in the real time, it's like, recognize in real time, it sounds like this person is Janice, is self aware is like, oh, that thing is happening in my mind. What's the story I'm telling myself here?

Unknown Speaker  41:48  
Actually, one. I don't know if you've heard of The Work of Byron Katie. We talked about this before. So Byron Katie is quirky and she's odd, but she has this methodology of four questions when you're feeling anxious or worried or overwhelmed with a story that you're telling yourself. Oh, we'll put these in the show notes. This is the four questions that you ask yourself. So I'll give you an example. When I was on a this is like a sort of ran random story. But I'll come back to this. I was on a cruise ship a couple of years ago, and I've been on a lot of cruise ships, but this particular cruise ship was very much like this, right? And so I was lying in bed at night, and I was, I was panicking. I was telling myself this kind of anxiety loop of like, oh my god, we're gonna die. What happens if we die? Wouldn't even tell us that we're gonna be, like, headed into like, what's going on here? Like, I had this whole like story I was telling myself. And so I came back to, these are the questions that you ask yourself. The first question is, is it true? Okay? And in that situation, I was like, well, it might be like, it might be true. I don't know. Second question is, how can I absolutely know that it's true? Well, okay, I can't know that it's possible. I can't 100% know. The third question is, who would I be or how would I feel if I didn't have this thought? So if I was doing that in real time, I'd be like, well, if I didn't have this thought that we're gonna all die, I'd probably be, like, enjoying the sort of rocking back and forth. I'd be just sort of like, I guess we're just, you know, having a normal cruise night, whatever. It's weird weather. Who cares? And then the fourth question, what you're supposed to do is turn it around instead of so if the story in my head was we are so unsafe, things are going to go wrong. This flip side of it is we are the safest we've ever been. This captain has this unlock like you tell yourself the opposite of the story that's giving you anxiety. So to go back to Janice, she's saying she's anxious about Valentine's Day. So I would get her to do that. What is get to the core of what is really making you anxious, and ask yourself the four questions, is it true? How can I absolutely know it's true? How would I feel without the thought and then turn it around? I really like that. I mean, it's true. You. It's so easy to get yourself into these cycles of just not trusting your brain. I mean, we've all heard that saying, don't believe everything that you think you talk about. Worry is a liar. Also worry is a liar. And, you know, and worrying is also praying for things that you don't want, that that's another one that's kind of hard to swallow, but we were all just we're all in the same boat. I think we're all so hard on ourselves, but you've got to know that the person sitting next to you at a movie theater or someone that you're passing in your car, we all experience such similar things. There's only so many emotions, and I think we're all struggling with personal relationships in lieu of everything that's going on in the world. Everyone deals with stuff differently, but I think you know, still going back to friendships, like platonic friendships, I can't stress to you how much they have informed me

Unknown Speaker  44:47  
as I'm going forward into, like an intimate relationship. I there's such a bar that has been gifted me of what you know, how my friends have support.

Unknown Speaker  45:00  
Me and and, and the same was for thortis. It's amazing, you know, meeting her dear heart friends, I thought this is a person that values friendships and that curates and nurtures and feeds beautiful friendships, and that's told me so much about her as well. Green flag, yeah, it's just like, Oh, my God, and me, and she was so excited for me to meet her friends. And I just was like, wow, this is exactly the person that she is showing me to be. There was no, you know, I think if you you don't ever meet

Unknown Speaker  45:36  
the person's friends that you're interested in or dating or whatever, I think that's kind of a telltale sign. I think it's important to know who they have in their lives, cheering them on and supporting them and and giving them advice, you know. And these are solid, smart women that are, you know, so much like her. They're doers and artists and burlesque dancers and politicians. And it's, you know, it's just spectrum, yes, yeah, yeah, okay, Nikki, here, I feel like you kind of answered it, but maybe you have a different take on it. Nikki wanted to know, for a wife whose husband has a really low sex drive, nagging is not working. I don't want to make him feel bad, but I'm dying over here.

Unknown Speaker  46:18  
So the role play thing is an interesting Well, I would also get curious, like, and this is where a good therapist might be able to help too, if you don't feel comfortable having these conversations on your own. But like, When did she start to notice his sex drive change? What other extenuating circumstances are going on? Is he depressed? Is he like, you know, I would get really curious about, like, what is going on. And these can be really tender, vulnerable conversations. And that's why it is helpful to have a really good marital, you know, couples therapist to sort of like, get, you know, you remembering, like, what, what worked in your sex life when you first got together, because presumably Something brought you together, something was working at one point in time, or you wouldn't be together, to resurrect some of those feelings of what the early Sex and the desire looked like, and then to figure it to track and to try to figure out where things started to change, because men and women are not that different. And so we have these presumptions that it's usually the woman who has the lower sex drive than the man. That's certainly not the case necessarily. And so I would ask her, if she can't get a therapist to help them navigate this is just do it outside the bedroom. Start asking these questions. I actually had to. I spoke at a women's retreat recently, and I don't think I'm not going to say names, but there was one woman who was had a similar thing, and I made this. Maybe I'll give you a link to you can put in your show notes. Sure I had made this sort of, what I invented, this kind of pleasure mapping technique, and it was based around asking sort of questions related to, like, what's your inner compass lead you to when you think of pleasure or whatever I got like they were just curious questions. So she brought it home, and she reached out to me afterwards telling me this, and sat down with her husband, who had been kind of like distant sexually with her, and this act of them, I think they went out to dinner and they did this together. It sparked all these conversations, and they suddenly felt safer together. And then that opened the door for a little bit more intimacy again. So I think sometimes it's just a simple thing of like bringing curiosity back, making space and and yeah, and then, and then, treading quite delicately, because men are just as complicated as we are. Any more questions?

Unknown Speaker  48:29  
So this one is kind of about, you know, what gets passed on from your parents? Karen from Halifax, do adult children end up patterning their parents relationship? And what do you know about that? I mean, I'm not an expert in attachment styles completely. And I also think, like anybody like it really is just one way of looking at relationship, and I don't think we're destined to repeat at all. The sense of our sounds

Unknown Speaker  48:56  
very dramatic, but like the habits of patterns of our parents, I do think, as we discuss with attachment styles, there are certain things that are embedded in us early on, like, if we learned a lot that, you know, our fathers were the ones who were, you know, frenetic and and, you know, loud, we might at certain points time in our lives be drawn into a relationship that that mimics that, that becomes a familiar thing, but I don't think we're destined to that.

Unknown Speaker  49:25  
Where I do think that we need to remember is that if we're feeling bothered or really stirred reaction, like if something a reaction kicks up, it's something, it's something is there, and it probably is rooted either in an early, traumatic relationship with a lover or something from your childhood. But no, I don't think we're destined. I think that is the work. That is the work is to try to understand it, come with curiosity and evolve past it. Yeah, that's fair. While we have Cynthia here, Should we see if we got any love voice notes? We have a few at.

Unknown Speaker  50:00  
Let's see what we got. We never know what we're gonna get. Okay, here we go. Good morning, ladies. First of all, I want to say congratulations, Jann on your engagement. Super exciting.

Unknown Speaker  50:12  
What I would love to see now is a Jann season four as a newly engaged Jann, since Season One, two and three were absolutely phenomenal. It'd be amazing now to have a season four. She's right. I don't know who it was, but great suggestion. Yeah. Well, it's funny. CTV never did cancel us. So maybe we're not canceled. We have no idea. On the back burner. Maybe we're in the back burner. Herbal link. Talk to your co workers, Cynthia, figure that out. I love that. Oh my god. That show was great. Cynthia was on that show. She was a guest star. I was, oh yeah, television host with Katie Lang. That was, that was one of the most surreal, amazing. So surreal,

Unknown Speaker  50:57  
I agree. Okay, here's another Hi, girls. I drive a transit bus here, and so I'm in traffic, and I deal with people and different situations. So on my breaks, I like to not be peopling. And I'm been binge watching your your podcast, and I've watched with with George and Rick and Mary, Jo and Sarah, and just all in Maryland. And just, I'm just loving all this information and the things you talk about. I'm in between you guys. I'm 53 so I was like with the lava life, dating and and that fun stuff.

Unknown Speaker  51:37  
Have traveled coast to coast. And what I want to say is that Canadians are beautiful, coast to coast. I love this country. I love living here,

Unknown Speaker  51:46  
and I'm proud of who we are as people. We drove up to one hotel in edmonston, New Brunswick, and a lady saw our Manitoba plates, and she started talking to me and saying, Oh, my son lives in Winnipeg. He said, with the military. And I said, Well, my guy's with the military, and he's been 26 years. And, you know, of course, they don't know each other. But anyway, she went into her car, and next thing I know, I have apples in my head. She's like, here you have some honey crisp from my tree in my yard, and that's Canada. And I went to peace by chocolate and anti gnesh, and I went to the covered bridge chips, and I just try and support everything Canadian, including you girls. I'm on the fence about Patreon, but I think I'm almost there. Have an amazing day, and thanks again for doing what you do. The special guests on Patreon have been giving lately all of the significant others, some children. It's been really fun. Yeah, it really has been fun. No, I get it. It's hard to think about paying for something that you don't have to pay for.

Unknown Speaker  52:47  
But we appreciate it. We appreciate the opportunity to continue to make this podcast. And yeah, it does. It costs money to do it, but anyway, get off the fence five bucks. You can't even buy a box of tampons for five bucks.

Unknown Speaker  53:00  
So a Happy Valentine's Day to all of our listeners, especially those who send us voice notes, don't forget about our ask Jen segment, because Jan. Jann may not be a Cynthia Loyce, but she has lots of great advice. Yeah, she's been one of my most treasured people to go to for advice. You have been,

Unknown Speaker  53:22  
I can't even tell you, Jan, how valuable. I think you know. But if, in case you don't, you have just been a guiding light, and your wisdom is, I only hope that I'm able to communicate some of that wisdom in the way that you have for me for someone else at some point. Of course you do, my God, it's been very mutual. It's been so mutual. And it's it's always beautiful to make friends later on in life. And you think that

Unknown Speaker  53:53  
you know, you think that you know you might not make friends anymore, that you have these childhood friends or friends that you work with, but you know you you just know how precious it is. But we got so much to look forward to. We're on a giant adventure. And the thing with you also, whenever you and I have, when you've asked me advice about things, you always know what the answer is, and that's what I love about you. Like, you know, it's just like we all need just that extra reassurance. I think we all kind of know in our hearts what we want to do, but we do need like a person just to say, yes, I would take that sourdough bread course and make it your own. It's worth spending $40 on like you already know what the answer? God, if only life was that simple, right? Love you. I love you. Happy Valentine's Day to you too, and I'm glad you're taking time for yourself. I'm glad you do the fucking cold plunge and that you're prioritizing yourself. We are shit of use to anybody if we're not well and on our feet, we cannot help our kids, we cannot help our friends, we can't help our parents. We have to have our shoulders back and we have to be selfish and look after.

Unknown Speaker  55:00  
Selves, full stop. End of story. I think it's without exception, look after yourself, and that's what we're gonna leave you with today. Valentine's Day. Don't go to fucking shoppers and buy a heart shaped box full of shit chocolates. Go for a walk in the trees and write somebody a poem, even if you don't fucking know how to write a poem, that's right, just figure it out. Yeah, or give somebody a hug. If you come over to our Patreon for this week, I'll tell you about my worst valentine's day ever. Oh, okay, okay. Our guest has been Cynthia Loyce today, and you can check her out five days a week on CTV, hosting the social in their 13th season. It's a fantastic show. You guys have done such a beautiful job of of keeping that fresh and keeping it relevant, and I think your fashion is getting better and better every year. Can I also just say quickly, on the iHeart Radio app, you can find my podcast, which is Cynthia and josie's unmentionable, unmentionables, all kinds of things that women were told you shouldn't talk about, and we unearth all them, from menopause to body image, to the story of her husband's broken penis, to everything. That's a good one sex. It's shame. It's you can't like that man in the face again anymore. I know everyone knows. It's a great episode. And when everyone thought Cynthia and I were having an affair,

Unknown Speaker  56:19  
good time. Oh God, good times. Okay. Cynthia Lloyds, thank you very much to all of you guys. We'll see you next time on the Jann Arden podcast, Sarah Burke, Caitlin green, Cynthia myself. Doodly, doo