Carole Pope Gives Zero F*cks

Well, hello there. Welcome to the Jann Arden podcast. I am here with the incomparable Sarah Burke. I am in my Toronto condominium, doing stuff in Toronto, as you do. Sarah is in her Toronto abode, but today

we don't give a shit about us, because we have some spectacular people here. I have been a fan of Carol Pope's for 77 years, which is longer than she has been alive. Basically, let me just say, let me just say, I'm gonna give you this intro, Carol. I know you're sitting here on the screen looking at us, but you're going to hear this anyway, and it's short and sweet, although it could go on for 40 minutes, like I am right now.

Our guest today, Rock Icon, that's probably gets tired for you to hear the words icon, legend, treasure, all these words that most of us artists are kind of like, I'm a little uncomfortable with that, but you are indeed exactly that you are a rule breaker. Yes, you are. You smash fucking rules long before there were rules, before it was safe to be queer, to be a queer icon out and about, and singing about salacious, sensual, sexual things, and pushing those boundaries constantly. An industry that did not, and probably still does not know what to do with the likes of Carol Pope, your disruptor, that word I like, Carol Pope disruptor, and of course, the front woman of Rough Trade. Please welcome, without any further rambling, the one, the only Carol Pope. Welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me.

It's amazing. Listen, we're also here with Michelle Mama, who was the director, the writer, the producer, the putter together of your brand new documentary, Anti Diva. Michelle Mama, congratulations on this. I have seen the documentary twice. Anyway, tell me, what's it like to sit in a seat in a theater and look at yourself through decades of work, and to be able to kind of pat yourself on the back.

It's overwhelming

to say the least, but you know, I do want people to know about me and Rough Trade, and what an innovative band we were, and about crazy times. I learned a lot of things about you that I didn't know,

and I think seeing the archival footage was mind-boggling to me, because I remember it, and I could place myself there in real time with you, with the band, seeing the Junos, you know, that became very famous. The famous clips of the Junos, your outfits, your hair, the live appearances you made. I saw you live several times in the 80s. I saw you several times in a bar, and I think, holy shit, I cannot believe I was there. So, as I'm watching the documentary, it stirred up a lot of feelings in me.

What have the reactions been like? And I'll throw this over to you, Michelle, briefly. You guys can both answer that. What have the reactions been like? This has been in front of people. This film, well, it's been in front of very select people. Tonight is the night it's premiering. So, tonight, I mean, I'm really looking forward to watching it with the audience, but people like yourself and other press who have seen it have similar reactions, especially the people who were there yesterday. We were interviewed by somebody who lived in Newfoundland, straight dude, you know, married. He was obsessed with Carol Pope. You know, Tracy Melchor was in tears today interviewing us. Like people have very, very distinct memories of the time and place, and Carol was like kind of the beacon of that time and place, and like I always say, you know, she created community for all the weirdos, and all the, if whether they were queer or not, the people who were not listening to Prague Rock and the other crap that was on the radio, they saw something new, they saw the future, and they said, we want to be a part of it, you know, and everybody who went to those shows, if they were queer, you know, I hear this all the time, that they would, if you saw someone wearing a rough trade button, you knew you were good, it was like a wink, like either I'm queer or I'm good with you being queer, and that was really, really important at the time, yeah, I mean, we just, there was, we kind of filled a void, and

that's what drew people to us. There was nobody doing really original material, especially about sex and

politics, and

you know, we invited those people in, and they felt safe, and we just had a wide array of fans, I kind of overwhelmed when I think about it. I'm like, what, what the hell? I mean, it's amazing.

Think the one thing that really rings true for me as a fellow artist, and watching you over the years,

and I'm just gonna say it, I think you're very underrated as a songwriter. I think you are.

An extraordinary, extraordinary songwriter, and I mean, like

Elton John and Burt

Bacharach, and you know, just these, these brilliant Carole King and Joni Mitchell. I hold you in that regard. I think your lyrical sensibility,

and your melodies, Carol, are just fantastic. They stay with you, like you have just so many songs that are

are just ear worms, and I listen to your music as much today as I probably did in 1888

which was over 100 years ago, as you know, yeah, yeah, but I mean that, and how do you, and I know you're still writing, and you're still so creative, and you're always in that personal pursuit.

Do you think music has become much more of

a of an internal form of expression rather than, oh, am I going to get this on the radio? Sometimes I think when that part of it goes away, you, you're even more creative than you were before.

Well, I hope to get stuff on the radio, but well,

but it's a nightmare. I mean, I know I get stuff on college radio and indie radio, but you know, I don't expect to get stuff on the radio, so I just write for myself and perform the stuff live, and people like it, and you know the whole streaming thing has destroyed my life and everybody else's life.

Yeah, still trying to figure out how to monetize that part of it. This is a question that Sarah brought up. Sarah, you gave me such great questions, I should let you ask them, but speak to that, Sarah, because you were talking about being too early, or you know how Carol's career would look now. I think what Jan's getting at is like this idea of would your career look different if you started now? Like, do you feel like it was too early for an industry like this to embrace you at the time?

Yeah, well, I mean, you know,

we were definitely ahead of our time. I guess you know now they'd be like,

oh, she's an interesting singer-songwriter. I don't know how people would react to me, because then it was shocking, and now it's not shocking, but I think it's a lyric system still shocking, and I'm still out there pushing boundaries, and I'm not afraid to do that. So, you don't think like if you were 25 years old and coming out the way that you did, you know, in the 70s, 80s,

do you think you would have had an easier time of it? Maybe I'll just add a caveat onto onto Sarah's query: Is are we better now than we were then? Are we more open to gender bending queer ideas of music as sexuality as an audience? Yeah, I feel like, you know, of every time I listen to some of these new artists, especially young women, it's of a sexual nature. The word 'fuck' comes up a lot,

talking about getting blow jobs in theaters and in back seats, referring to Chappelle Rowan,

like it's there, the dialog is there, and I think you are very much responsible for kicking that gate open

to allowing women of all ages to speak like that. Oh, yeah, absolutely, I just had to speak my truth, and sexuality has always been, well, amusing to me.

And

yeah, I mean, I don't know how I would.. how would I shock people today? I mean, I don't know. How can you shock people today when it's all in your face right now? You can't really today. If I was starting today, they would just appreciate me as a singer, songwriter, lyricist, but I wouldn't even try for the shock. I mean, what can I do? Well, myself up, I don't know.

Well, a great performer too. I think Michelle is itching to comment. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, you know, there's shock, and that's there too. But anyway, but it's also like Jan, what she did, and I think you speak to this so beautifully in the film, and I just want to thank you so much for your contributions, everybody. Jann is in the film, and she's obviously no surprise, the funniest, the funniest part, but you know what she did with her music was incredible, what she did with her image was incredible, but what she really did was create community, because when people are drawn to somebody like Carol, you know, magnetized to somebody like Carol, they're all like-minded, they're all picking up the same frequency, and even though I wasn't there, I know,

you know, inherently it was the weirdos, and it was, you know, all those people, and so, you know, that is an important contribution, because you're making space for people, and in addition to that, a little baby Jann and little baby KD, and all, and little baby Rufus are watching, and they go, wait, maybe I can be the full expression of myself after all, because look, this one's doing it, I can do it too, and so if you can't see it, you can't be it, blah.

Blah blah, and Carol Pope, you know, kicked down the door.

Yeah.

No, absolutely. I think you're performing, Carol, was amazing.

There was a presence that you had, and still have, that is just undeniable. I mean, you, you have maintained this sense of drama and edginess for all these years, and you're so timeless. Does it still feel as fluid and as comfortable, and as it just seems effortless when you stand on stage with a microphone in your hand? And I was wondering, if you could, you know, tell us a little bit about what's performing like in 2026

It's just very, very freeing, as I really

give zero fucks, always.

Yes,

so it's just joyous. I mean, I'm having a great time. My band, if I have a band, and I also.. it's like rough trade. There's my solo band and my acoustic thing, and we just loving love mouthing off, and you know we're just there to amuse the audience, and

you know they can relate to that, they can relate to how honest and blatant we're being.

Have you seen familiar faces over the decades, Carol, of people that have just literally fucking followed you around for 3540 years?

Yes, I had. Well, yeah, some, but some of them are gone. So I hate, I can relate. I'm like, Where's Phil? Always dead. Okay, great. Yeah, there's a lot of that, but yeah, some people have stuck with me through the years, which I love. Where are all the clothes? Where are all the damn clothes? I don't have those.

I don't have the clothes. Where are they? What do you mean? Aren't you like Celine Dion with some kind of a warehouse in Vegas somewhere?

No, I have one. I have one Vivian Westwood piece, and that's it. And I just.. well, they didn't fit me anymore. I was like, I'm just going to get rid of them, so I basically did, but now I'm really sorry. I want to talk about consequences. What do you think the consequences of your openness

were

on a business level, Carol? What were the consequences of that? I don't know. I think

if we'd broken out of the US, it would have been easier, or England, or somewhere, but because we're in Canada, and I wanted Kevin to move to the States with me, but he wouldn't, but I don't blame him, because he had, he has a wife and a family, and

all of that

kind of gets stuck in a retinal Canada, especially somebody like me, and we had very, very bad luck with record labels and tour support and all this stuff, because we were ahead of our time, and

yeah, no, and I was this androgynous creature, and record companies didn't know what to do with me, but we, we did have some momentum, and then we just totally had bad luck, we were signed to stiff, which went hits up, and then we were assigned to Boardwalk, and the head of Boardwalk passed away, and Neil Bodart. Then some mafia dude had our contract. Then it was just like that. Then we didn't get tour support to do more dates with Bowie, so it was just like,

yeah, kind of a nightmare. Back to you, Sarah, because I'm looking at your questions, and I want to hear them. Well, when you would be on the road with someone like Bowie, I'm sure consequence just like floats away. It doesn't matter because you're, you know, with other artists who express themselves wholly. So, yeah, maybe talk about who inspired you coming up, and if there's anyone in this current day and age that's inspiring you that you really like what they're doing, you know, I really was mad in love with old school R and B and gospel, and I was inspired by The Beatles and Stones and Hendricks and everybody, and I'm like, I want to be like not what I expected, I wanted to be like that, and I was inspired by

Cole Porter,

because he's a closeted songwriter,

great lyricist, and Mike Nichols and Elaine May.

Wow,

I love them so much. I love their improv so much. I thought they were brilliant, and without those, the records we listened to when I was a kid, we would listen to comedy records, and we would memorize everything, so like intellectual comedy like that inspired me, and

also reading, like, you know, the story of O and Henry Miller and Anais Minh, and things like that, and feminist books, yeah,

and it just translated into

just lyrical expression. I think literature is so important for so many artists. My parents were big readers, although they read kind of junky stuff, old westerns and harlequin romances, and things like that, but they still really inspired my idea of reading. So, I agree with you there, Carol. It's so big, and humor and comedy was so big. You're really funny.

You're acerbic,

and people stand in front of you, because I've seen it time and time again in interviews and on stage, and they're fucking not sure

what has happened. They're like, is she kidding?

Is she serious? Was that funny?

And when the joke lands on them, there's this relief that kind of hits their chest, and are like, okay, Carol Pope just kind of shaded me. I just got a little something from her, and I love that, watching you in interviews, because they've.. it takes them a while. I know, I know, there's somebody up there. Hold on one sec. Yeah, I love this. We've got flowers, that's nice.

I want to lie and say they're from me and Sarah, but they're not. We don't know where you are. No one would tell us where you are, right here in Toronto. Oh

gosh,

dang, that's amazing. So, because our director, producer has to go in a second, she's literally at a hair appointment, we should ask her. You, we have time for one more question for Michelle. So, I want to know if there was anything that you two maybe had to have it out on, like anything you disagreed on that maybe you were like hoping would make it into the movie, and Carol was like, "I don't know about that, or vice versa.

I don't know if you have the bravery to have it out with Carol Pope. I sure don't, but I know I will say there were some things that were off limits that we did talk about, certain family things, and I was able to manage that by sort of telling as much of the story as Carol was comfortable with, because ultimately, you know, this isn't a puff piece, this isn't an EPK, Carol's not a part of it, but I do respect her as a human being, and I was able to respect those boundaries, but other than that, you know, she was pretty much an open book, she was ready to tell her story. It's time, you know, it was the most surprising thing that you found, even being so close to it. How many straight men are obsessed with her? Just obsessed. That's why I put Sebastian Bach in the film, because, because it's an unlikely super fan, right? And it's, and, and I mean, we were talking to Richard Kraus yesterday, who lived in Newfoundland, and was like, "Oh my god, I was obsessed with you, and we used to dress like you, and I used to dress windows for you, and like all this stuff, and it's like, you, we know we have the girls, we know we have the gays, but what, what, like, and I think it was just the sheer, the fact that Carol was not looking for male approval or the male gaze, and anyway made them want her even more. Plus, she was speaking about sexuality in a frank way, which, of course, you know men love that.

And we were rocking out, yeah. And that means it was amazing, because I will say the other, the other cohort is music nerds. They need a live to tape record in the 70s that these music nerds still talk about, they used to play it at stereo stores, so that you could hear, because of the mute, because the sound was so pristine, because it was just live to record. Kiddo can speak more on the direct to disc technology, but it, it is still to this day held up as one of the best live recordings of all time, amazing. Well, I know you have to go. Congratulations. Thank you. Congratulations, Michelle. Thank you, and Jan, truly, thank you. Your contributions to this film are invaluable. I could not have done it without you. Thank you, Michelle. You're adorable, and we'll see you soon, and good luck tonight. Thank you, my love. Bye.

The next question, aging as a queer woman, aging as a queer woman in the industry.

Do you feel like it's better for you, the overall atmosphere and the kind of the landscape of that now

or when you were 30 years old, do you feel like there's any progress been made? People are ageist,

but you know, I have my Cher and my Jane Fonda. I mean, I just met Jane Fonda a couple of years ago, and I was so inspired by her, and how amazing she looks, and how political she is.

God, growing old is not fun at

all, but

you know, you're just like a 30 year old trapped in an aging body. I mean, I'm incredibly immature, I don't feel my age,

you know, nor should you, I mean, what is age, anyway? It's very subjective. Yeah, I wish I think it was a vampire can take over somebody else's body, but I can't.

Well, yet we don't know how that's going to unfold.

Do you? Do you feel respected now in a way that perhaps you weren't before, like you know, Michelle speaks to the accolades, and, and people coming out of, you know, all corners of existence now, saying, "Oh yeah, Carol, and this and that, and Carol, that, and rough trade, and this and that,

are people seemingly more

will.

Trying to share that that admiration for you now, like you must feel that as you look back at your career of just how much you were admired and appreciated. I do feel it more now, especially after doing all this media, like, oh, you like me, you really like me, going all Sally feel,

but yeah, I do feel appreciated.

It would have been nice to be more appreciated

when I was younger in the moment, in the moment, but

you know, I'm like, well, appreciate me now and appreciate my solo stuff. Yes, give me some fucking gigs and play my music, that's what I want.

Well, your tenacity is inspiring, and I think that's what art

is seemingly all about, is just this

unbelievably

intrepid spirit. I think that a lot of artists have just to keep creating

no matter what's happening around you, and you inspire me all the time in that regard. I just, I mean, I have followed you for years. I don't know if you remember having lunch with me in LA.

Yeah, I did. It was over 20 years ago. I was, I was working in, I think, Santa Monica or something, and

and we had been in contact somehow. I'm not even sure how that happened, Carol, but I remember leaving the studio and saying I'm going to go have lunch with Carol Pope, and I was so nervous,

like, yeah, oh God, I was just like, what am I doing, and my, am I cool enough, and I, this

idiot from the prairies, and like, and I'm gonna go see Carol Pope, because you know the reality of, you know, watching you, like I said, seeing you live many times, and and just you were like the top of fame to me, and most to Canada, all of Canada, and I just.. it was surreal having lunch with you. I'm glad you remembered. I almost didn't want to bring it up, in case you went, "No, it's not ringing any bells, Jan. No, because I always thought you were a great singer-songwriter, so I was like, "Yeah, I was excited to have lunch with you too. So, do you realize the impact you have on people like you're probably oblivious to it. I just was shaking walking across the street. I was oblivious to that. I didn't know you were shaking. I think you bought lunch too. I think you just like it was already paid for. I'm like, okay, cool. She paid for lunch as well, and I remember I could hardly eat. I think you had, like, some kind of a salad and some anti-passo stuff. It was sort of an Italian place, but.. and then you think, are is that memory even real? Like, do you have any of those moments with people that you admired, you know, over the years, like either meeting them or having a meal or a drink with them? Yeah, that would be great to know if you have any, any similar experiences like that.

Oh, yeah,

yeah. For some reason, I've met so many people

that actually, Mama called me the like a Where's Waldo of meeting celebrities?

Oh, because

I, when I was a teenager,

I

met a friend of mine, was doing a documentary on Jimi Hendrix, and he had me interview Jimi Hendrix, and that was like mind blowing.

Yeah,

around nuts. Wait, you can't skip over that, you have to tell us a little bit more.

Yeah. my friend Alan Collins was doing a doc on Jimmy, and he was playing in Toronto, and we went backstage, and I think everybody was on acid

in the whole room. The opening bit, the opening band was the Soft Machine, some psychedelic band, and yeah, so Alan fed me these questions. I was shaking,

and

because it was Jimmy, and he was very charming, very, very charming, and sweet, but I just got this acid vibe off him, because God knows I've done a lot of acid myself.

God, who else we actually had some listener questions, specifically asking you about Dusty, my manager at the time, Vicki Wickham, thought I should meet her, she thought, oh, you too, she's very British, Vicki was the producer on the British music show Ready Study Go, which was just, yeah, yeah, brilliant, so she's like, you should meet Dusty.

So

I went to see her at this club called the Grand Finale, and Rock Hudson was there. Dr. Quinn, medicine woman, Tran Leibowitz.. I can't remember what Dr. Quinn's real name is. Jane Seymour. Yeah, Jane Seymour.

Um, and Helen Reddy,

God, I loved Helen Reddy. She just died a few years ago. Yeah. Anyway, so that's how I met her, and then we entered into this, you know, red flag

filled relationship for a while. You got to have a few of those in your life, yeah. And then Nona Hendricks, Vicki managed her, and we

elaborated

on one of her most successful songs, Transformation, like Kevin's playing a lot on that track, and I sang on it and helped with the lyrics, and I worked on some other stuff with her, and she sang on

some rough trades tracks, like shaking the foundations and beg for it, and she's so brilliant, she's such a brilliant woman, and an amazing performer.

And I also met Patti LaBelle through her. We went

lunch at Patti LaBelle. Does anybody sing higher than Patti LaBelle? She could break glass. Yeah,

um, anyway, just law, I could do a giant celebrity list of people I've met, but doesn't that get boring? No, I just.. I just, you know, wonder if you ever got intimidated. I guess my question wasn't as specific enough. I just know, like, my experience with meeting you, I was just like, 'Holy shit, like, how well I.. why did I even say yes? Because I won't even know what to talk about, and, and I'm not cool enough. I'm just this kid from the prairies, and it's fucking Carol Pope, and you know, all you could think about was, you know, all touch and no contact, and high school confidential, and like all these iconic songs, and, and I don't know. So, I guess that was sort of more the focus is, are you intimidated by anybody, Carol? Like, is there anyone that you're kind of like, holy shit, like was it Jane Fonda? Was that a bit intimidating, or are you just.. that was that fucking cool? That was very intimidating, because I'm such a huge fan, and I'm like, well, I'm not gonna say I've seen all your movies, but I have, so yes, really, what to say to her.

So that was definitely intimidating. Like, meeting big movie stars like that is

crazy, you know? You never expect that to happen. And definitely Jimi Hendrix, for sure. That would have been the trip to Toronto, where he got busted at the airport because he, he wasn't alive very much after that, right? So, no, I guess he wasn't, not yet. Yeah. Oh,

Dave Gilmore, because from Pink Floyd, because I actually tried to work on a Pink Floyd album with him, that was intimidating, although I was not ever a Pink Floyd fan, but really, but we won't tell them that. David, you didn't hear that from us. Acid brings people together. It's fine. Yeah,

acid brings people together. Do you think you're still just a Canadian kid at heart? Like, is there a part of you? What does it mean to be Canadian? I know you haven't lived in Canada for a number of years, but does that still swirl around inside of your body? I was born in Manchester.

I knew you were English. I knew that you, you came booting over the pond at a later date, but, but that you do consider yourself Canadian. I'm, I consider myself Canadian, British, but I'm definitely an Anglophile, and I love England, but yeah, when I,

you know, I want to defend Canada. It's weird living in the US now with all this weird fucking hype that's going on, but I mean, there's so many Canadian artists that I love that are so brilliant, and I,

you know, I always listen to, like, Jane Simrie or KD or Kenny Starr

or Broken Social Scene. I mean, I love that Peyton, Anna McGarrigal. They make me cry. Yeah, they really were such amazing musicians. I met them just one time in my life, and it was very awe-inspiring. Those early records. Listen, I'm just so grateful that you were able to come on the show today and share some of these memories, and I can't congratulate you enough on this, this documentary. Like I said, I've, I've seen it, and it's, it's just such a, it's a great piece of art, it's a great piece of film. Think Michelle Mama has done such a great job, and seeing that archival footage was

mind-boggling, and seeing you and seeing just how you transformed yourself and really changed the scene, the music scene, not only here but a lot of other places in the world, certainly the United States, whether you think you made it there or not, I think your fandom is stretches far wider than

your perception of it, but just, congratulations on Auntie Diva, and I hope it's a fantastic night tonight, and I hope to run into you again. I owe you dinner,

feel like I need to, you know, you paid in US dollars, so I'm sure it'd be like.

$300 Canadian dollars that I'll have to splurge on us. I am a huge fan, along with millions of other people. You inspired me so much

just growing up, and I love the fact that you shocked people, and you're just a fantastic artist. And I can't wait to see what you do next. Just from our only Jans, that's what we call our Patreon listeners,

a woman named Karen says Carol is about four years older than me. We both went to rival high schools in Scarborough. She was at Cedebrae Collegiate, yeah, I was at Woburn Collegiate, wondering if she still has ties from the alum,

and I think Carolyn was saying that she saw you at Meeford Hall a few weeks ago, saucy humor, amazing pipes. A lot of people in our Patreon were saying that they know you from high school in Toronto. Isn't that crazy? I love that.

That, that is.. I thought everybody from my high school would be dead by now. But what do you think that you would say

to an up-and-coming queer artist who is trying to find their place on stage, and in this crazy music industry.

My God, well,

just perform live as often as possible,

get some, you know, music out there, and just be true to yourself, and no matter what anybody says to you,

you know, just keep on doing it. I mean, you just have to really persevere, and it's difficult, and sometimes you want to shoot yourself in the head, but give zero fucks. Yeah, give zero fucks, do your thing, because somebody out there is going to get you and like you and

worship you, and

that's all that matters, really.

We worship you. That's amazing. We've been talking to Carol Pope. Her new documentary is premiering tonight, so by the time you see this,

this thing will be out in the world. Anti-Dava is amazing. Michelle, Mama, congratulations. Have a great time tonight. We will be cheering you on. I'm so sorry that I can't be there. So sorry I can't be there. Anyway, I will cross paths with you soon, I hope. But you've been listening to the Jann Arden Podcast. We will be right back.

Welcome back, Jann Arden Podcast. I'm here with Sarah Burke. Yeah, Carol Pope, what do you think of that? That was nuts. Okay, how was that? Interviewing Carol Pope, because I mean, you didn't seem nervous. I've seen you be nervous. I didn't feel like you were nervous for this one at all. But as you were talking about how much she inspired you, I didn't realize how big of a deal it was. For can you talk a little bit about, like, what you actually did in the film? They just interviewed me, Michelle. This was going back, like,

20 months ago or something. Okay, I could tell when I saw the clip, my hair was so short. We were here in Toronto, and I spoke for a long time about Carol, and there was only one line that made it in the documentary, one

little line, and it was about watching Carol on some television program, might have been the juniors or something, but I was ironing my dad's handkerchiefs. My mom had an ironing room, and it was one of the chores that I had to do growing up. Was.. oh, I remember this was the William Shatner party, same same thing, same little TV that I would have been watching her on.

But yeah, I think Carol was kind of omnipresent. I was in high school. I graduated in 80s, so the late 70s high school confidential was the teetering song that everyone was giggling. She makes me cream my jeans when she comes my way, and everyone would just sing it at the top of their lungs, but they were singing along with Bob Seeger, and they were singing along with, you know, Nazareth, and Jethro Tal and Leonard Skinner, like I don't know how rough trade kind of made their way into the truck music, so when we were out in a field drinking beer and standing like bowling pins in front of a blazing fire in somebody's farm somewhere, and truck doors open and the eight tracks going, yes, and you know, woven in between Pink Floyd and Cat Stevens and Dusty Springfield, like

everyone seemed to have the same playlists when I was growing up, like everyone basically was listening to the same.. I was born in the wrong era, I'm telling you, I have so much FOMO hearing you talk about this, I would have been. oh God, Sarah, you would have just fit yourself in like it would have been seamless, because it was Joplin and Hendrix, and I mean they were gone by then in the late 70s, they were all dead, but people were still listening to that music, you know what Michelle said about straight white men, okay? Yes, so here's two perfect examples,

you met him, my buddy Mike, who's the music director at Indie Eight, here in Toronto, at one of the amphitheater shows. So, I'm like, oh, we're interviewing Carol Pope tomorrow, like we're so excited, he's flipping out, like he's so excited, right? There's a straight white guy, Dan. He was like, oh, I don't know if I know who Carol Pope is, right, my guy. Well.

Well, I play him a little bit of the song. He's like, "Oh, like immediately. Yeah, I don't think she realizes it. And you know, she's kind of

speaks about her career like it really never went anywhere, and they really were the biggest thing for a number of years. And you know, I have a very similar story, and my content was much different than her. Fast forward 20 years later, but I had a couple of songs in the states that were huge and sensitive was huge. Could I be good mother? It sort of, you know, was on the brink, and there was a lot of things that went wrong, and there was, you know, I'm sure I had imaging problems, and no, you didn't, and weird management stuff, and but for whatever reason, you know, Insensitive was so big, but people didn't connect Insensitive with me, like years ago. They're going, "Oh, you're the girl that sings that, but my name didn't imprint itself on it. It's all fine, like I think about it now, and people say, "Do you lament the fact that you never really made it in the States? And I'm like, "No,

I. I have been a working musician for 45 years,

and I've made a really good living very quietly, and I do corporate jobs, and I'm always working, and I'm busy, and you know, my music is kind of omnipresent, like if you're listening to gold radio, if you're listening to, you know,

any kind, we're playing the 70s, 80s, and 90s, you're gonna hear me on there. There's that voice again. Oh, your radio imaging voice,

and Carol, similarly.

And I meant to ask her about this. You know, those bands that were big, they didn't make the money they should have, and I don't know if corporate jobs were in place, and I don't know if Rough Trade would have been the kind of band that a pharmaceutical company would have hired to come and play their songs. Do you know what I mean? There was the corporate gig, the corporate side of things, which most musicians really rely on, and now

with the way streaming is, it's, it's

very important, you know, an important part of my life, the legacy, though. Like, have you ever been to a rough trade shop, like in New York or London?

No. Okay, so, like, I remember, I think it was, it was right before the pandemic hit, I was invited to see a Canadian artist play at Rough Trade Records, it's a record shop in New York, and it was the record, it was tied to the record label originally, but now they're just indie record shops. Okay, and

yeah, so like you think about a band like Rough Trade has its name over an independent records store now. I think that, you know, seamlessly weaves in what Carol set out to do. No,

yeah, but like I said, I think they were much bigger than they thought they were, and I could kick myself, but that's part of my nerves. I should have gotten there, because I wanted to talk to her about the monetary aspect of what the music business looked like. Were the record deals shitty? I mean, with a song like, you know, High School Confidential, it was omnipresent. It must have been played a million times a day. And imagine commercial radio, you're the radio person having lyrics like that

on commercial radio. Yeah, like they didn't beep it out,

Sarah. It was like it was very poetic, the way that that was worked into what she was doing, even though people are just bopping along to the beat, not even realizing what's in the lead, not even realizing, and Sebastian Bach mentioned that in the documentary,

and

he was just gobsmacked that this woman, this edgy woman, and she was very striking, you know, Carol is, she's very striking, she's a really handsome woman. She's got beautiful bone structure. She's so very much herself to her at 1o'clock pm, and she's in her.. she's wearing a suit, like she.. she looks so awesome and so well put together, hair glasses, and to talk about still like her wish right now in 2026

How old is she? Hold on, Carol Pope is 7079

79 No, she was born in 1946

So she's talking today about how her wish is, hire me to perform more. I want to perform more, and like she said, she's immature, she's.. she feels eternally young, and there's there's a real lesson in this, and I think most of us would agree

that the part of aging that is frustrating is that it doesn't match your soul, and I think souls have a timelessness quality to them. We kind of usurp speaking to elderly people's bodies because they're they're in there and they're so youthful and they're so connected to the grid and their bodies just make it impossible to

have that soul voice be able to express yourself. And thank God we kind of jump. I'm glad that energy jumps and jumps out of these bodies that become more of a hindrance than an earthly pleasure, like when we're young.

And we can enjoy sexuality and food and music and and breathing and running and jumping and dancing and and creating and all these things

and and then we just we age out of that and I think it's an important part of learning and important part of being consciousness but anyway I don't want to get too esoteric here but Carol is a she is the perfect example of a very youthful soul. She probably feels 16, and she's just.. I mean, listen, how well spoken she is. She seemed a little reserved, like I think she's kind of god smacked about her day and what's happening tonight. Yeah, we caught her on a big day. We caught her on a very big day. Yeah, because I've seen her do other interviews, and she's like, you know, chatty is all hell, and I think you could see today that she was taking it in, which was cool. So, yeah, well, during our interview, the door knocked in her hotel here in Toronto, and a big bouquet of flowers showed up. So, yeah, I was just gonna say, you also had a big night last night while you're in Toronto, and I feel like we just got to cover it on the pod for a minute, but okay, all right, all right. So you were honored in a huge way last night with a giant symphony, was that a symphony or an orchestra? I did it with students of the conservatory, it's the Canada Conservatory of Music, okay? And they just, they just put together a big fundraising event, which is wonderful to raise money for the conservatory, and, and in conjunction with that, I think you know they always sort of spotlight a Canadian artist, and it happened to be me, which was great, but really, really, at the heart of it, it is a fundraiser. Okay, and they presented me with a lovely fellowship. I don't know what I get, it's not Fellowship of the Rings, there's nothing to do with Lord of the Rings, so I was disappointed about that, that I wasn't going to be, you know, living in a hobbit hut. No, indeed, the funny part of it is I'm not academic in music at all, and the conservatory always strikes me as such an academic, you know, symphony type thing, where you have 10 year olds that can play the violin like fucking Mozart in 1640

but I'm, you know, I was, I was really happy just to be part of the evening. It was really cool. Donovan Woods was there, and I saw him, and has met his wife, and he has a new podcast. Did you see? Yes, it's with Tom, Tom Power, CBC podcast called The Big Five. Yeah, I said I want to be on there, so they better get me on there. I love Donovan. My one of my guys had a big, big crush on him at 1.0

God, he's the voice that comes out of him, because he's, you know, he's got this beard, and he, he just, he's a really handsome guy, but the voice that comes out of him is always like, oh my god, you sound like an angel. If you ever get to do another season of The Jann Show, Donovan and Carol Pope, two funny as fuck people that need to be part of it. Yeah, and in very, very different ways. Yeah, but yeah, I love that Carol's like, I still want to get on the radio, and I think we do have to change the model of what music looks like. How do we fight ageism and sexism, and you know, I think the gender disparity, that gap between countries' music stations playing 90% men and 10% women, you can speak to this much better than I can. Don't even get me started on, okay, queer people and trans people, and like, it's a okay problem. Well, in country we're seeing more and more queer-like artists coming out that are getting traction from people in Southern Kentucky and North Carolina and fucking Missouri, like they're getting traction because people are like, I just like song, it's good song, and like we said about lyrics, a lot of times this fucking stuff is shooting over people's heads, they have no idea what is actually being

slid across their table. They like the beat, they like the music, they like the production, and meanwhile somebody's talking about, you know, getting humped on a Saturday night. And

anyway, that's our show. Caitlin will be back next week, eventually, whenever this airs, and Sarah, once again, thank you. Thanks to our only Jans show notes. All the information is there for Carol. Yep, we'll talk to you soon. To lead it,

you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai