Back to School with Thordis Elva: Digital Rights & Internet Safety

0:00  
Jann. Hello

0:07  
and welcome to the Jann Arden podcast. I am Jann Arden today, I'm coming to you from Reykjavik in Iceland, and Sarah and Caitlin are coming to you live from Toronto, Ontario, from their respective homes, Thordis Elva, our special guest today, who's also my girlfriend, is also coming to you from Reykjavik, and we always wanted to have you come back on the show, and we never got to a lot of the stuff when we had you on as a guest talking about your book south of forgiveness, and you just got a couple of grants. You are the head of an organization that deals with Internet safety and a lot of other things. I'm not even going to try and attempt to explain what that is, but you just received out of the seven grants that are offered in this country, your organization received two of them. Tell us about what those grants are for. Because today we're going to be talking about Internet rights, Internet safety, revenge porn, safety on the internet. People are going to be concerned about their kids going back to school, what that means for everyone on their devices and engaging in social things again, and online bullying and all these things. So we're going to pick your brain about an assortment of things. I just want to kind of give people the heads up of what we're going to be talking about today. So what were the grants for? And tell us a little bit about what you do and why it's important.

1:33  
It's always hard to answer what it is that I do exactly. And last time that we did speak, my abuse story that I published in south of forgiveness and shared a stage with my perpetrator, talking about kind of ADA the whole time. But it's all interconnected, because I think my own kind of indoctrination, if you will, into that terrible topic when I was 16 years old and I was assaulted by my first boyfriend. You know, it kind of turned me on to this. It became a calling of mine. And I think that's such a common story for survivors to want to prevent, you know, abuse from happening elsewhere and to other people. And so, you know, unsurprisingly, I was years later, sitting on the board of a woman's shelter in Reykjavik, and it was in 2010 and this now would be interesting to ask you guys, when did you join Facebook? Do you remember what year you joined 2000

2:31  
I want four. Yeah, I want to say four or five. I'm

2:34  
going to say 2005 or six, right in there, somewhere in there,

2:38  
I think it was rolled out to the public in 2007 so you guys may have been on to something before the rest of us. Well, anyway, I think, I think most of us were joining somewhere in the years between 2007 and nine. I think that's when most people joined. And I'm sitting in Reykjavik in the women's shelter board in 2010 and that's when most of our nation had joined. So we were connected Facebook people and the stories we were hearing from the women that sought out the shelter were changing slowly. I mean, it's never been easy to leave an abusive relationship. It's always been life threatening. Let's just face that. But now they were saying, If I leave, he will share nude photos, and he will share sexually explicit imagery and videos. And before Yes, of course, you could do that online. There was places where you could upload stuff like that previously, prior to social media, but now the threat was so real. It was so palpable because everyone you knew was on a platform where you could upload something harmful and you could be tagged in it. So that would ensure that all your co workers, your children, your family, your parents, everyone would see it like, what a nightmare, exactly. So what I started to see in the testimonies of people seeking out the shelter services was a pattern where they were getting locked into abusive relationships because of digital technology. It's always been hard to leave an abusive relationship, but now it was like a padlock on the door that you could, you know, be tagged in something humiliating that would like be a part of your digital footprint for life. So I think it's all interconnected my own experience and me segwaying into wanting to do more in digital spaces and and to open people's eyes up to the fact that it is so harmful and that it is a real type of violence and a real type of abuse, because we tend to think that only the type of Violence that leaves broken bones and black eyes that's real, but that's not true, especially not now in 2025 there's so many other ways to harm people and to cause lifelong effects, and I think we should be talking far more about digital rights and what our rights are in. Online spaces and how we can safeguard them and protect ourselves.

5:03  
What were your grants for? Oh,

5:07  
thank you. Thank you.

5:09  
No, no. I mean, I asked you. I asked you a 14 part question.

5:12  
One of them was infinitely interesting. It's basically redoing research that came out in the city of Dublin University last year. That just gives me the chills. My God, it was 10 smartphones that were completely new. So there's nothing on there. There's nothing on the camera roll. There's nothing in the address book. It's just clean phones, 10 of them, five were registered onto YouTube, shorts and Tiktok as 16 year old boys belonging to 16 year old boys, and five of them were registered on the same platforms as 18 year old boys to see if there was any difference to the type of material that's being recommended for underage people and people of age. And these boys, these fake profiles, were given a range of different interests. They were gamer nerds. They were, you know, soccer kids like different profiles with different screen habits. And then they just started to monitor, how long can these boys be on these platforms before they see the first misogynistic content that is recommended to them that shows up in their news feed? And it was a chilling 23 minutes before the first misogynistic clip would show up in these boys news feeds. And if they did nothing, they did not click on it, they did not like it, save it, share it, nothing. They just lingered, which is what you do when you see something shocking, when you see someone talking about women shouldn't have the right to vote, or it's women's faults if they're sexually assaulted. Shocking content like that, it makes you stop and listen, and if you did, then the algorithm would go, Oh, you like this, don't you? So three hours later, 76% of the content in these boys YouTube feeds was misogynistic, 78% on Tiktok. It just blows your mind, and it makes you think about radicalization, how young men are being radicalized into sexism and misogyny. And so the grant we got was to kind of repeat that study and look specifically at queer phobia and anti queer content and messaging, so that we can hold these platforms to account and say you are seeding hatred towards the LGBTQ community. The other grant, if I should segue into that, I feel like I'm just giving long monologs here,

7:42  
and that's all the time we have today on today's show,

7:46  
no, the the other grant was to basically, because Iceland is, um, adheres to European Union laws, and European Union laws are crazy complicated. Uh, three different acts were recently passed that are just monstrously complex. There are 135 pages, some of them the DSA, the Digital Services Act, which basically forces meta and other social media media giants to comply to certain digital rights and human rights and online spaces that they can't sell our data to just anyone, and you know, things like that, that alone is is so robust, it's like a phone book. So obviously, it's not something that we can just sit down and decipher on our own, like it. There's a whole horde of lawyers that you know, specializes in deciphering that. And if we look back at my past having been a part of a women's shelter, then I know the frontline workers that are receiving battered people to the shelters, they don't have the time or the expertise to sit down and decipher like, what are the digital rights of this woman who's seeking my services and my help, but it is so Important to know how to instruct her to turn off her location services, that she can't be cyber stocked while she's in the shelter, that the shelter address isn't given away. All kinds of protections that need to be in place. But if you don't know that, if that is not knowledge that you have for the time being, then that is not going to help you. It's not going to be a part of the protection that you're going to enact when you need it the most. So we are translating these extremely complex legal documents into like something accessible and decipherable for those that are working frontline to help them inform victims of what their rights are and how to be safer online and offline. Let's say

9:45  
Caitlin. I'm going to throw this over to you. We were talking about the tea stuff. We were talking about by location services on Instagram. So I'm going to hand it over to Caitlin because we got we got questions that we're definitely going to get

9:57  
to today. So I've been dying to talk to you about the. Instagram maps feature that they rolled out, and this has created, understandably, a huge stir within privacy groups and also now various senators and attorney generals in the US are calling this feature out because it was just sort of rolled out, sort of out of nowhere, Instagram, all of a sudden, just started making this map feature available, where you could see where your friends and just people you follow were physically located. Now, many people had opted out of this. Some people didn't, and it just felt like it was incumbent upon everyone to be aware of that this app was rolled out, that they made sure that they had their location sharing off. And also, for some people, I just found this weird. Like, if you previously shared a location, like you tagged a location that you were in on your stories, you know, you'd have to tap on that then go and look and see where it is. Now, if you do that, there's like this trail of where everyone's been located all the time. And so it just feels like a very unsafe, strange feature to roll out in 2025 like, I don't understand how this happened and how nobody at Instagram flagged this for having so many privacy implications, especially for women and especially for children.

11:13  
Oh, absolutely no. It was flat. I was flabbergasted when I saw that, and because I am in conversation with the platforms. Oftentimes, we do invite them. My organization, which is called Nordic digital rights and equality foundation, I didn't mention that earlier, but we are in conversation with the platforms oftentimes, and they do seek us out for recommendations and feedback on features. No one talked to us. We would have given the base of our mind for sure, no, that's a terrible idea. Would have been the first thing had we had a seat in that room. And the funny thing is that Snapchat has been criticized quite frequently for having something called the snap map on, and it's a feature where you can toggle it on and then people see you on a map and and it's been criticized because children will often have it on and it makes them vulnerable to grooming and to predators that may, you know, find them. It's so it's so exact that you can basically see where in a building someone is located. It's super precise. Yeah, it's chilling. And Snapchat had been criticized quite a lot for that as a, you know, as something that threatens safety. And if users aren't very well informed about what it actually entails, then they might just, you know, out of ignorance, have it toggled on, and children will so they have been petitioned to kind of have it off as a standard procedure, like, the default is that it's off and you have to, like, consent twice to it being on. Their representative sent me a message the day that Instagram rolled out this, this maps feature, and was like, what? The actual fuck like, we're not the worst kid on the block anymore. Like, what? Because, you know, we at least ask people twice. So this is just absolutely crazy, and it seemed like, you know, a race to the bottom in terms of privacy violations of users. And I don't have the million dollar answer to the question, like, what were they thinking? I do know that it is a very real threat to women that have been stalked, but also to people with a high profile to controversial, you know, influencer politicians that all of a sudden can have, you know, an ex on their house. There's a non binary influencer that I know that has been the target of hate campaigns, you know, from people that are anti LGBTQ and anti trans, and they woke up that day with like their house just blinking on the map, and it was a terrifying day, and just racing to get it off and to try and wipe their history clean is mind boggling, As you say that this would take place in 2025 and I think that it's so good to use this as an opportunity to remind people that location services is something we should all be mindful of checking what apps are getting permission, and to ask yourself twice, why would this app need my permission to know my location. I think sometimes we're kind of thoughtless about it, and we just have it on. But the data that is being collected can be wielded against us for many different reasons, and in end stage capitalism, trying to sell us things we don't need is quite, you know, close to the top of that list.

14:42  
Yeah, I appreciated that. And then this, this news about a bunch of lawmakers in the US coming after Instagram for this, criticizing them heavily and saying that States needed to become more aware of the fact that this poses a threat to people in their community, was tied also to the release of a Louisiana Attorney General who said that they were. Going to be suing Roblox for not doing enough to protect children from avoiding predators who lurk on these games, any game now that has a chat feature and is geared towards children is sort of this like breeding ground for predators. So I do appreciate that it used to feel a little bit overwhelming, because it was almost like the onus was on the individual to know everything about this and be so on top of tech news that they know how to opt out. And I really think your point about like opting in versus opting out is well made, because how can anyone be expected to keep up with the proliferation of all of these rollouts like it just feels like it would be a full time job, especially if you were a parent.

15:36  
Yeah, exactly.

15:38  
I checked on Instagram right away, and I have seen people tag pictures on Instagram, like, if they're in Cancun or something, you see a little banner that comes up, you know, if they're at the Hilton Hotel. Or I've often seen people do that on their photos. I never do that on my photos. Like, it never says I'm on Jann's road. No one has a clue where Jann's road is. But anyway, I went through all the steps that you had provided sort of like I went and I think I texted you, I'm like, What am I looking for here? Like I'm going in, I'm trying to find and I sent you a screenshot. I said, this is what I have in my location part. And I wasn't offered that in Alberta at the time. Now I'm checking it like every second day to see have they just surprisingly put this thing on there for someone like me, for people to know my location. Obviously, I share where I am. I've said I'm in Reykjavik, but I don't think any nut ball could find me wandering around here. But it is concerning, Sarah, you made a good point just about kids, the back to school stuff. So maybe we should talk about that for a minute, because in Canada, if they're not back in school already, they're headed back in the next two

16:46  
weeks, and a lot of the kids are given a device, you know, mostly to stay in touch with their parents or coordinate rides and stuff. But there's only so much that we can expect of the trust of the kids on the device if the parent hasn't turned things off or deleted apps or no,

17:03  
it's definitely a very tricky thing to navigate being a parent in 2025 with with everything that's going on online, and with children being online so much. And I think you know, the top recommendation I have for parents, Roblox is a great example. I'm glad you mentioned that. Yes, there's grooming happening on Roblox. ROBLOX is certainly not the only place where grooming is happening and where predators are seeking out children. That is kind of there's no place online where you're completely safe, so that's good to always remember, to not have a false sense of safety anywhere, really. But um, let's say that you're a parent and that your child comes to you and tells you that someone on Roblox asked you something odd, wanted to know where you live, what your real name is, those kinds of things which are often precursors to sexual abuse. I think it's in our nature to kind of freak out and just want to remove the threat. So it would not be uncommon for a parent in that situation to just want to delete roadblocks, right? Just take that thing out of the child's hands. But that is something that I think we need to think carefully about and try to avoid at length, because if we just take things from kids when they alert us to danger and when they trust us with their negative experiences online, if we just remove their devices or delete their apps, they're not going to come to us again. They are not going to come to us again. So what I tell parents in situations like that is try and breathe. I know this is scary. I know that your child just described something that's very upsetting, and like your your feelings are valid, and we should hold space for that, and you should definitely look into safety measures. But the solution is not to just delete the app or take the device from the child, because then you're inadvertently punishing the victim in the situation the child here, which is not the problem, the problem is not the child and not the device, and oftentimes, not even the app. The problem is either found in a setting or in the fact that predators will find a way oftentimes. And the key here is to keep communication open about this with your child, and I, I've sometimes said you can't really world you can't really child proof the world. So we have to world proof our children, in the sense that we have to teach them critical thinking, try to install the filters within them so that their intuition goes off when something is funny, and that they immediately seek out an adult, and that they immediately disengage from whatever that is given them a funny feeling, to delete, to block and to notify, to report as often as possible, and to teach kids those kind of basic steps and to always seek us. Out, but they won't if we punish them. So I think if we just twist that one thing around, if we just get that one switch flipped, where our first reaction is not to to kind of remove and ban, but to kind of sit with the feeling, acknowledge the upset, and then take steps to kind of strengthen and cement the communication around the online experience, and take measures to to teach your children, but also, you know, go over all the safety features and see if all the settings are are right. I think that in the long run, is going to be more effective than just removing i The

20:46  
settings are confusing. Am I the only one? No, you know, you go into your phone. The artist is seven year old. Son had my I watch my Apple Watch on yesterday because he kept looking at the face of my watch and it kept changing. I have Mickey Mouse like I have a bunch of fun. Fa I just put it on his wrist. I'm like, You are driving me bonkers looking at my wrist all the time. He had everything figured out. I swear to God, in five minutes. I was like, I don't even know how you did that. Where did that come from? He's pointing at it going, you know, he just knew what to do anyway. My question being for settings like, I'll go back to what you posted. Thought is about these steps and settings. I'm sitting there looking on my phone. I did like 10 things to get to that point to look for the setting that I was supposed to change. So I feel like they're kind of Hood winking us, like some of these, the meta, these big guys are just they're doing things that they know full well are not going to get our attention. How many of you guys have ever read the 17,000 word agreement? We're all guilty. So so when you, when you get a new phone, or when you sign up for an app, or whatever, usually we are, we are given a very, very long agreement form. I have never, ever read anything. And I think we would be absolutely fucking shocked to find out what was in those agreements and what we were agreeing to, whether it's Instagram or Tiktok or whatever. So I don't know. I just feel like user beware, like you said, you have to think it through, and you have to take the time to figure out what exact location services that you do have on a lot of times you're prompted. Do you want to use location services when you're using Waze only when you have the app open? Or is it something that ways, can fucking secretly have on the entire time you're carrying your phone around? Do you know what I mean, like, you can't just look at your phone and ignore the shit willy nilly anymore, because there's, there's a price to pay. I want to move on a little bit from that to the tea app, where people are like, Have you dated this guy? They've got 19 boyfriends and six husbands. Like, tell me about that. And maybe tortoise can shed some light on what that was and what went wrong. I

22:58  
mean, tortoise, I'm sure you're familiar with this app. I've heard

23:01  
about it. I've not had to use it. Jen, do you have 17 boyfriends and 36 girlfriends? Because now would be a time to tell me,

23:12  
I do. I do. And it's just par for the course when you are as popular, when you're an international sensation. Yes,

23:20  
a quick recap is that this was an app called tea, and it was actually developed by a man, and it was developed because his mom had been catfished, and these romance scams are increasingly common online. So he wanted to create a women only platform where women can share stories and experiences that they've had with men they've dated, whether that would be someone who's being catfished of a photo that's being, you know, used to pretend and fake women out like a really handsome guy that they're pretending to be, and they use that to scam money, or someone who's abusive, or someone who has shared photos without consent, like all these creepy behaviors that we know certain men engage in. And so they created this tea app. Then, of course, the like, dark corners of the internet, like four Chan and some of these sort of, like, I don't know, like, men's rights groups started claiming that it was sexist against men women to be able to privately share these stories about them and gossip about them. And it felt like it was kind of the the old adage of, like, you know, men are afraid of women laughing at them, and women are afraid of men killing them, like it's like, not equal. And so then it ended up being doxed, like it was hacked into, and some of the personal information of the female users who were engaging on this app was shared and made public. And then they created another app called tea on her, which was the male equivalent, so a place for men to share information about women, and of course, then all the problematic things that that can be misused for. So I just, I feel like the online dating world is another area that has just become overrun with the need for total recalibration. Like you said, if people did. Digital Rights and and kind of like a best practices for for women when they're occupying these spaces, it just feels, it feels scary and intimidating. I I think of my single girlfriends, and I just don't know how they I don't know how you engage with someone on hinge like it freaks me out.

25:14  
No, absolutely this, this kind of, it brings a lot to my mind. You know, patriarchy is never as threatened as when women band together and like the collective strength and power of women. And we saw that during the metoo revolution, of course, and this seems like a tangent of that. This is women warning other women about men that are either abusive or dishonest or, you know, in some way, able to cause harm and warning each other about that and and it's just like that Margaret Atwood quote that women are scared of of men killing them, and men for men, it's it's their ego and their reputation. I'm seeing this mirrored in my college lecture tour. I'm seeing that girls fear is what it always has been of being abused or killed by, you know, letting a man into their lives and entrusting men, and that is the number one threat to the life and health of women of reproductive age worldwide. And it's absolutely mind blowing to say that that violence against women perpetrated by men still maims and kills more women than malaria, cancer, war and traffic, men they know, yes, men that are in their lives because of intimate relationships. In my lecture tour, when kids seek me out afterwards, and in Iceland, the term College is the kind of junior college, 16 through 19. So that's the age group that I've been lecturing to for the past two years. And when they seek me out afterwards to talk to me about these issues, then the girls will be fearing for their lives. They will have cyber stalkers. They will be receiving death threats, and the boys will come to me with fear that they will be named as a perpetrator in on online spaces, that they will be have that kind of stamp, that to be branded a rapist for the rest of your life. And they feel that it's so you know, it's just in perpetuity. You know what? What goes online is just there forever, and you can never get rid of whatever slander or, you know, what's written about you in online spaces. And oftentimes, as we know, it's not slander. Oftentimes, when women are opening up about abusive experiences, you know, and a majority of the cases that is is based on truth. It's very rare for, for example, sexual assaults to be based on, you know, a falsehood, for example, going through the court system, we've seen that time and time again when research has been conducted in that area, that most of the time it's based on fact, of course, but that is what I'm seeing in my own work, that what triggered the fear of four Chan and those that felt the need to attack the tea app is mirrored to me, in the fear of young men, of being branded abusive somehow. And I think that, you know, as frustrating as the story is about the tea app, and as like you know, patriarchy always fucking finds a way when women have invented something, right, when we have made something for us that is supposed to just safeguard us and keep us protected. In a world where men are such a threat, it's an omnipresent danger that they will always find a way to kind of, you know, take it down or turn it against us. Somehow, I still think that we are moving in the right direction when we're seeing that, you know, it's it's it has gravity. Now, young men do fear being branded that way, that being an abuser now holds gravity, holds weight. It's something you don't want to be. And I'm just hoping that that is motivating young people, and young men in particular, to then want to be more mindful and to want to be absolutely 100% sure that they are seeking consent for any type of interaction or not to mention intimacy with with women and girls, whether it's an online or an offline space, to be absolutely sure of that, because that is the best way to prevent you from being branded an abuser, is that you are just always very mindful that what you're doing is not just consensual, but hopefully you know welcomed and enthusiastically so

29:40  
is that the advice you Give the men who ask you about that, like when the kids come to you after lectures and approach you and like the boys specifically, is that sort of like what you tell them if they're saying, Oh, I'm worried about this. Well,

29:50  
no, I do tell them a number of things. In Iceland, it is illegal to spread rumors about you having committed a crime that you didn't commit. So of course, there are protections. Is in place. If that is something that is occurring in your life, then, of course, you can take legal action. And also if you are, for some reason, the target of a smear campaign, which of course, happens to people of all genders and particularly to people in the public eye, then there is something that we don't talk about enough, I feel, and it's called the right to be forgotten, and it is the right to have your name wiped from like the Google search engine, for example. So let's say that I was the victim of non consensual, intimate image sharing, and that not only was my or my intimate images or videos shared online, but I was also tagged in it, which is so insidious, because then my social media handles get, like, bundled up with this sexually explicit material along with my name. So let's say I was then applying for a job, and my potential employer would look me up and just find these really, you know, shocking results that are not favorable to my professional reputation. You know that would be a situation that most of us don't want to find ourselves, and that our digital footprint, or our digital CV, if you will, is is just completely hijacked by by abuse. Then we can apply for this to be just wiped out of the Google search engine, for example, and just start with a clean slate. It's not something that happens overnight. It is a process, and it's good to have a lawyer go through it with you, but it is possible, and it's so important to remember that because the sense of hopelessness and just the bleak outlook that victims of serious online abuse experience, it is helped tremendously by the notion that this does not have to be your image for the rest of your life. This does not have to be your public profile.

31:58  
That's good to know that you can that you can get this stuff taken off. Sarah, you were going to say something,

32:03  
well, yeah, on the topic of tools, like I was going here, so I'm glad that you did. What about tools that maybe someone can take some of their own agency into their own account, don't have to apply for anything through the government. We're actually going to have some resources and tools from thordas in the show notes. But yeah, get into some of

32:20  
that stuff. Oh yes, no, I love to talk about the tools. I don't feel like we're doing that enough either, because they're so user friendly and they're so effective. And this goes both out to the parents that we've wanted to involve in this this conversation, but also to people over 18 and legal adults. But there are tools for both of those age groups, for minors and for adults to kind of take back that control. Let's say that someone were now to use a undress app or a nudify app, which is basically AI wielded against us as private citizens, and we are undressed against our well, nudify Exactly so you can take anyone's picture and upload it into these apps and it will undress the person on the picture. And of course, you know, of course, patriarchy, because patriarchy has ensured that this is being wielded first and foremost against women. And they're marketed. These apps are marketed in such a way that you can undress anyone. But that's not true. So I tried, you know, inserting a picture of a fully clothed man into these apps, and the app would spit out this man undressed, but then he had a female body, like then he had, you know, a woman's body, an undressed woman's body. So that was such a, you know, an ultimate reveal of what the true intention of this app is. It's gender based violence. It is targeting women specifically. But anyway, let's say that someone were to do that to us, and, you know, upload us into this app, and we would all of a sudden have a nude photo circulating online that was plausible enough. I mean, they're really realistic enough. And let's say it was on all these platforms now, and we've lost control of kind of the distribution. And it was popping up on Instagram, and it was popping up on Facebook, and sometimes, and in some cases, it even pops up on like Pornhub or only fans. So that's when people often get really concerned, because then their name will be associated with those platforms anyway. What you could do if you're over 18 is you could go to what's called Stop ncii.org, and the ncii stands for non consensual intimate images. So stop the sharing of non consensual intimate images. And what you do there is, there's a button that just says, Get Started. You click that you have to own the image or video that you're seeking to have removed. Right? So that's the only downside. Sometimes people just hear about a photo of them circulating or a video, and they're not sure what it is. If that's true for you, then you will not be able to use this app. But if you do have the image or the video, then you can upload it onto this database, stop ncii, and it will hash it, which just means that it translates it into like o's and ones, so it's not decipherable to the human eye, but the machine will, the bots will know. And then it scours the internet and just looks for this particular image or video and where it finds it on the platforms that are partnering with the stop and CII service, which are many platforms, I think they're 12 or 13 at this point, it not only takes down the image or the video, but it also creates, like a preventative feature, so that if anyone tries to upload This photo or video again, then it will just automatically be

36:04  
barred. And the big players participating in this, yes, for example, it's a

36:08  
meta initiative, actually. So we can sit here and trash talk meta and they rightfully so. They deserve to be criticized for a number of things, but they did pioneer this technology. And so it's all the meta platforms, which is instagram, facebook, whatsapp, it's got only fans. It's got Pornhub, Reddit, snap, yeah, a lot of partners that are signing up to be, you know, a part of this, because companies are waking up to the fact that it's really bad business to host online abuse. It's really not great. This same technology exists for under 18, and in that case, it's called take it down. So if you're a parent and you know that your child is being targeted for, let's say, deep fakes, these AI images that are are faked, or if your child is has had intimate image is leaked, or someone has coerced your child into taking nude photos or whatever. Then the take it down would be the site to go to, and it's the same process. It asks you for the picture or the video, and then it scours the internet, takes it down and creates this preventative feature so it can't be shared again in the places where they have signed up and created a collaboration. I wish I could say it's internet wide and that we have technology now that can just, you know, scour the entirety of of our online spaces. We haven't gotten there yet, but the closest that we've gotten is a technology called Sasha that is being pioneered in Denmark as we speak, and they just launched their Beta version of their app so we could be the first generation to see, you know, us being able to take control of our image, of our reputation In online spaces completely and fully as it should be. It feels like it should be a human right.

38:14  
Lourdes. Would you give us like clear takeaways, especially for parents with kids going back to school, what are like three or four top things that parents need to address with the kids who have a device

38:24  
Absolutely, yes, no. I mean, it's hard. Being a parent has always been hard throughout the ages, but it's particularly tricky now, I'd say we're straddling towards worlds, the online and the offline world. But you know, thankfully, there are things we can do. And I think keeping in mind with with kids is that there's a lot of discussion about screen time now, as if screen time, in and of itself, is like the issue. And I want to say that sometimes I feel that parents get a false sense of safety. If they just limit screen time, their child will be safe, but it's so little to do with screen time, per se, and it's got so much to do with where your child is spending time online, and what they're actually doing there. And the there was a show on Netflix this year that just went globally viral called adolescence. I knew you were gonna bring that up. Yes, it's such a good show, and I think it kind of illustrates so well this kind of false sense of security that parents get, that their child is like not acting up. They're just in their room, they're just on their device, and they're not out there drinking or getting into brawls or something, but they might not know where their child is spending their time online, and it could be in an incredibly dangerous spaces and places online. So I think the notion of screen time, that whole debate, is kind of like off in a ditch, what we should be talking. Talking about is not the time spent online, but where like the location online. So I think that is something that parents should be talking about and monitoring with their children. Where are you in online spaces, and what is that app and tell me about it, and how can we make sure that you are safe in those places and and to also keep that line of communication open in such a way that the child will tell you if they get a funny feeling, and for your reaction to not immediately be to ban and erase and block that app or take the device away from the child, because if that is your reaction when your child tells you, I was on Roblox, and this, this strange man started to ask me questions about my gender and where I live. And you know, if I've ever taken a nude photo of myself like these are really uncomfortable things for any parent to hear, and it would be entirely human to just want to ban, block and remove the device or the app from the child, but if we do that, then in the long run, we're kind of damaging the trust that needs to exist between parents and children, where they won't seek us out, they won't tell us what's going on, if our immediate reaction is to bar them from partaking fully in online life, because we know that Kids are always going to find a way to partake in and their social environments, whether they're online or offline, no matter what we try to do to thwart that. So I think it's so much better in the long run, to to earn your child's trust and to tell them that we can navigate this together. We're not going to leave you to your own devices, quite literally in online spaces, I'm here with you, just like I would be in the offline world. I'm not going to abandon you. And also, it's so important that we remember that we're modeling behavior to them. They see what we do. Children pay attention all the time exactly. They pay attention to how we are behaving in online spaces and what our screen habits are. So I think it's incredibly important that we're always mindful that if we allow ourselves a different tone in online spaces than we would allow ourselves offline, then we are telling our children indirectly, that there's a different social contract in online spaces than there is offline, and that's a very slippery slope. And if we allow that, then we're essentially seeding online hate speech and for the debate climate to become so harsh that it's only open to a few privileged people. That is what we're seeing. It's the so called chilling effect that people in oppressed groups, or people that are already vulnerable for some reason, will not partake in the democratic discourse in online spaces. And we can either be a part of that problem or we can be a part of the solution, and what we model to children will set the tone for what online existence will be in the future. So I think that is also one of the things I would say are incredibly important to parents. Lastly, with settings, I know it's so hard to have a good grip of all the settings and online spaces you cannot let me just free parents of responsibility that they cannot be expected to have all the settings down. So to make it more manageable, just approach it app by app. If your child is now getting Roblox, look it up. Read about what the parental controls are, what settings to be mindful of, and just take it out by app. If your child is getting Snapchat, what should I have toggled on? What should I have toggled off? How can

43:49  
I see this stuff and exactly it'll give you step by step,

43:53  
exactly. So no one has to be an expert. We can't be experts on this. So if we break it down like that, just app by app and stay communicative with our kids, model our own behavior and and remember that screen time is is not about time, but about location and about behavior, then I think those would be the things that are most important for parents to keep in mind from from my point of These

44:20  
are good points for all of us. Yeah, not just kids, all of us,

44:25  
but it is a part of being a parent today to know to know settings. And if your child is getting say you have a 12 year old or 13 year old and they're entering the world of social media, then let's say they go on an app like Snapchat, which 70% of the teenagers in the Nordic Region have, then things like, you know, snap map being off, that you can't have your location being visible to everyone is an important thing, and also, because of the social awareness of teenagers, it has created. Motivated like deep seated psychological problems. It's been quite the crisis in schools, where kids can see that everyone in their class on SNAP map is in the same location and they were not invited.

45:16  
It's also everyone's Hanging Out Without Me. It's not just stalking, it's exact regular teen stuff

45:21  
that's damaging. It's the regular teen drama. I know, I know that you discover via snap map that you were the only one that weren't invited to the party, or something like so. So it's definitely caused, not only security concerns, but also, you know, has become quite complex and difficult thing to navigate as a teenager, just the social aspects of these apps, and to also talk about that with young people, I think is important so settings and keeping communication open around this. And also, I think, you know, we're talking so much about danger and threat now, I think it's so important to remember that the internet is a fantastic place to be. It's a place where we can learn and grow and play and expand our horizon. So I think one of my recommendations would always be to not paint too grim of a picture. Yes, we must be mindful of safety. We must know that there are dangers for sure to keep in mind, but it's also a beautiful tool to make friends and to just expand your world, and I think that we can't lose sight of that Despite of authorities.

46:37  
Can be optimistic, yes,

46:42  
but I'm optimistic. Because of young people. We did a little survey last summer. We spoke to, I think, around 2000 young people in Nordic region about what they would do if they could control the internet for one day, like if you had a magic wand, if you were boss of the internet for one day, what would you do? And young people have fantastic ideas about what they would do with with online spaces, and they're growing up in it in a way that my generation didn't, and they're fluent in it, and they see potential, where we see threats, and they see, you know, ways to grow and to make connections and to grow friendships and relationships, where I think we weren't growing up in the same environment, and don't have it in our blood in the same way. So I think for us that are straddling this, like, you know, kind of belonging to a generation that didn't grow up with us, but we're raising a generation that is, I think it's so important to to Yes, be aware, but also let the joy in and the potential and just remember what the internet could be is something we have to co create together. We have to remember that we are responsible for the culture that grows forth online, just in the way that we allow ourselves to treat each other. I

48:04  
mean, I try and look at the OP the bright side of things. For the most part, I like the internet. I have I've enjoyed my experience with Instagram, and I've enjoyed my experience with I mean, even something like Audible, like the amount of books that I've listened to. So you're right. I couldn't travel without my phone. I just, I'm always looking at, like news things. I think it connects us in a way. I mean, you talk about being an advocate for, for, you know, human rights. The phone is such a weapon of goodness to gather people and to protest and to let people know where to go. We all have basically geo tags that we're walking around with now, but there's a lot of good I don't think the metoo movement could have been what it was without our phones and without digital technology and about access to we're going to meet on the corner blah blah blah in Washington Square Park in New York City, and there's going to be fucking 250,000 of us. So it does a lot of good things. Yeah, there's shitty parts of it, for sure, but there's really good parts of it as well. Thornis, we're gonna keep you with us because we talk about one thing that we're kind of excited about or that we're loving in the moment.

49:16  
I'm keeping mine very Toronto centric, but this could basically apply to anywhere where you have access to like a large nature walk if you live in a major city, because in Toronto, we have something called Evergreen brick works. They do an amazing farmer's market every Saturday. And whenever I go, there's huge walking trails. We always see turtles. Will walks around and points out turtles and fish and birds, and it's just a really nice way to be still in a city on the weekend, especially in the summer, but then to get outside and enjoy nature and talk to will about fish and just to sort of like, spark a different kind of conversation than you would normally have. So I would say that is my biggest thing that's making me happy. We did it this weekend, and I loved it so much. And I also just love farmers markets. I don't know what it is about the crowd at a farmers market, but it's just. The nicest people, and they're all just so excited about produce and flowers that I'm like, Okay, if you want to have your heart explode, go to a farmer's market. So that's my that's my one thing

50:09  
I love that Sarah has left. So maybe she's just

50:13  
that was Sarah's way of saying she doesn't have anything

50:17  
Thorn. It's you have lots of good things in your life, and don't say me. You can't count me,

50:24  
damn it. That's what I wanted to gush about.

50:28  
Well, I have to preface this whole thing, but Caitlin has informed me that our recording day today is National couples day.

50:38  
Oh, well, then that's my answer, no. But like, how many times Shan have we talked about because digital technology has been, you know, the the topic of conversation today? How many times have we said thank God for like, these video calls that we can have where we can literally be looking at the same moon at the same time? I feel like we're standing side by side. It's definitely made our possibility of having and conducting a meaningful, long distance relationship. It's just a game changers, just revolutionary, I think, yeah, my lucky stars every day for for that, my children, of course, are an ever present source of joy. However, they've been on the longest freaking summer vacation. It's been two months and three weeks.

51:28  
Yeah, three months off. They have an Iceland. We're on day 7,850th

51:33  
vacation, and I'm fresh out of ideas of things to do. You

51:39  
had a special guest that could entertain

51:42  
him. I just put them in Jann's arms yesterday. I'm like, go crazy. And she did. She took them to, like, fly over Iceland, which is this immersive experience where you feel like you're suspended in the air and you fly over Iceland, it is and you're amazing. Oh, I like that. It is amazing. But you're splashed with water when you fly over water, and you're sprayed with like hay scent when you're flying over fields. And it's really something, and

52:08  
my chances are just wind in your face. Yeah, we had a great time. I highly recommend it. And if the Iceland Tourism Board is listening to me right now, please, you can sponsor us. I'm going to be coming here a lot, and I think I can be a great ambassador for your country and but fly over Iceland. I highly recommend it. If you come to Iceland, you don't need an excuse to come here. You certainly don't need to be in a relationship. This is the most amazing place.

52:35  
But we do recommend the relationships, though. We're quite good at the relationships. Yes, we've got that in the bag. Yeah,

52:42  
absolutely. But there's, there's so many things to do here. I mean, if you're an outdoor person, my God, you know the volcanoes and the geysers and the, I think you were telling me yesterday, thought is that, like 90% of this country has never had a footprint on it by a human being. Well, it's uninhabitable. For one thing. There's no roads. It's so funny. The Ring Road is literally the only freaking road to go anywhere. There's no inroads into the let's go into the interior. No, it's like the Everglades.

53:13  
It's just why you have to, like, get go around your ass, to get your elbow, like, you have to go the entire way around the country, yeah, instead of just cutting through, if you're driving up to the north, for example, to the capital the North accorded, you have to drive all the way around to get there. Well, you live

53:30  
on a continent that people are pissed off, that there's not a fucking road to fucking go every to every house, to every Well, I can't believe we have to go around to get to that house. There's a lot we could learn from from this place, Sarah, we're talking about one good thing in our life, so I'm going to throw it over to you, yes, sorry. Or something you're excited about right now, or something then you got up and left, we thought, holy shit, she's got nothing. I'm

53:55  
going to leave us with a little Patreon teaser, because you're going to want to have first dibs on a show that we are going to announce and put Tickets on sale to. So I'm excited about that, bringing the Jann Arden podcast back to a live stage. I'm very excited about that. It is

54:10  
going to be great. And I think Caitlin and Sarah are staying at my place. Caitlin's finally going to come out. That

54:16  
is something to look forward to. I want to show her all your decorative pillows and your weird garden gnomes and all of the things are you creeped out by the

54:28  
garden gnomes? Not the garden gnomes? She has this creepy dog doll. Oh, it's like a doll.

54:36  
It's a doll of MIDI, and it is sitting beside my mom and dad's ashes, which might have made it a bit creepier.

54:44  
No, I'm serious when I say there is a painting of that dog doll in an attic somewhere, getting prettier by the day. It is creepy. It's like dress in Victoria. And robes. And yes, yeah, yes, it is. I remember telling you I'm not coming. If that dog is in the house, that doll is in the house, and you're like, it will be long gone. And when I arrived, it was still there. So it's clear where your priorities lie. Miss Arden,

55:16  
I didn't even really think about I don't find that. I mean, it is a creepy dog, and I will show you on Patreon when I get home, I'll take a picture no to the nice lady who made me that doll. She, she it's a ceramic head, and it's got paws and feet, and it looks exactly like MIDI. I have MIDI tattooed on my shoulder, like I loved that damn dog. But maybe it is a little creepy. Maybe I don't recognize what's creepy anymore. Maybe this is a

55:44  
problem. We do have a couple voice notes. Do you want to do them while we have sort of with us?

55:48  
Tortoise is going to stay with us. Perhaps she can comment, okay, do I get my one good thing?

55:55  
If you went already, please? Yes. It's

55:58  
thorns. That's everyone. See, you are not, you're not. Could say that

56:04  
I seem a little more relaxed to this recording together than the first one. I think it's comical to think back to, like the other recording, when they were all like, nervous about each other. We

56:13  
hadn't said a thing to anybody. I was really nervous. It was early days. I was a wreck. And also I'm really, really grateful. I have to say that I'm really digging on my opportunity to get on like flying is blowing my mind these days. I know I've been flying for freaking 40 years, 50 years, flying around every time I get on a plane. Now, especially when you come here, there's a direct flight from Calgary to Reykjavik. You step on in the morning, I was feeding birds doing my thing. I step onto this plane. I fell asleep before the wheels came up and I got out in an entirely different country. It is mind boggling what air travel and how it's changed the world. So I'm going to be that's one thing that I'm digging on right now. Apparently, Air Canada employees have been ordered back to work, which kind of sucks. I just want to say people do deserve to earn a living wage, and, you know, say what you will. I hope they get what they need and what they deserve, because Air Canada charges out a lot for a plane ticket.

57:14  
Just one of the flight attendants who works out at the gym with me this morning said that there she has friends who are flight attendants who have to access the food

57:22  
bank? No, it's correct. That's not right. That's not right. Anyway, we're thinking about you all Air Canada people and people in aviation, but it's amazing. So now we've got voice notes. Let's see what we got.

57:32  
We do have an ask, Jann, I'm going to leave that for the end so that you can have a proper response. But let's start with

57:39  
Sherry. Hi, Jann Caitlin and Sarah. It's Sherry from Waterloo, Ontario. I just wanted to let you know that I've been listening to your podcast for about a year and a half, and I've gone back to old episodes as well, and yesterday, I finally signed up to be and only Jann on Patreon. I've been listening to other podcasts as well, but I do find that yours is the one I look forward to most every week, so I just frankly, couldn't get enough of you guys. So I'm looking forward to getting the bonus episodes every week, and hope to attend a live event at some point. Jann, I've always been a big fan of yours, but I did fall in love with you when you started co hosting on the social you really showed your personality and who you are, and I just think you're such a bright light. And I love listening to all three of you every week. I so appreciate you sharing your hearts and minds with us and Jann. I'm so happy for you and thordis, and thank you so much for sharing your love story with us. It means so much, and I just wish you all the best. So thanks again for everything you do. Take care. Thank you, Sherry. Don't try you too.

58:51  
Here's another one. Hi, Jen Caitlin and Sarah. It's Mary from Caledon, Ontario. Just finished walking my dog Lily after getting some very strange looks from my neighbors as I laughed out loud about the woman who farted on her first date. You'd mentioned that you'd like to hear about other first dates. Mine was with a cottage friend. We'd grown up together at our respective cottages, and David asked me if I'd like to go into town to see a movie. We'd taken my little green Mazda hatchback, and on the way home, I accidentally ran over a skunk. I immediately began to cry, being an animal lover, and David touched my arm trying to console me. I yelled, don't touch me. And continued sobbing. And then he began to gag at the smell emanating from the undercarriage, and then proceeded to throw up profusely in the front seat. Jesus, anyone looking into the car would have wondered what the that was 35 years ago, but and we're happily married and laugh every time. Thanks for the continued laughs. Love ya.

59:53  
Oh, that was cute. Thank you so much. And they made it. They made you. Made it. They made it mentally. Okay.

1:00:00  
Yeah, the internet being a really great thing. This woman told this terrible story about farting on a date. It wasn't a fart. It turned out to be a shart, like she shit, like she shit everywhere. And it was just anyway she shared this story, and she was devastated, and then 1000s of 1000s upon 1000s of people commented. I mean, this thing had like 22,000 replies or something on Twitter of people telling horrifying first date stories. I have never laughed so hard at some of these stories. And this is I appreciate the voice note, and it's crazy, and they're still together like first dates are very difficult. I

1:00:35  
think, guess what? I've got for Patreon today, not one, but two first date stories. They're both Okay. Last one the ask Jen, okay. Okay, different tone here, so just prepare.

1:00:49  
Hi, Jann Caitlin, Sarah, thank you so much for this wonderful podcast and what you guys put out. I really appreciate it. I started listening a few months back. I want to thank Jann for feeding her mother. I just got through that book. It was so hard to get through. My mom is 75 now. Memory. Stuff started at 73 so quite young. I'm 47 I have never experienced this kind of heartbreaking, heartbreak every day, a lot of anger, a lot of feelings, yeah. So any advice? I mean, your book was so wonderful. It's just like, of course, let's be in the moment. Let's meet them where they are. My mom is my person. I just, I feel really angry. Your book was, yeah, it was just so beautiful. And I appreciate you so much. And me and mom are going to come and see you in December in Niagara, because I live here. We live here in Niagara, so that'll be my first time seeing you in concert. And mom is going to love it. She's seen you before years ago, so

1:01:58  
yeah, thanks. It's a horrible thing to watch someone forget who they are, who you are, how to use a toothbrush, where they're going, where they live. I mean, human humanity, in our day to day, human lives don't exist without short term memory. It's an impossible thing to navigate, although my mother would tell you, and this is at the height of her Alzheimer's, Jann, you do not have to remember things to have a good time. That would explain vodka, because, you know, my mom was so Intrepid, and she didn't know what was going on, but she was always really optimistic. I can't explain it, but it's the worst thing I ever went through in my life. But so many good things come out of bad things, and that's all I can say to you, is your mother would look after you if, if the tables were turned, I'm sure. And human beings are built for obstacles. We're built for hardships. We're built for change. That's what we're built for. That's why we're still on the planet, because we're adaptable and we're movable and we don't nothing in life is static, and you're just gonna have to go through it. You're gonna have to hunker down, and you're gonna have to cry your head off, and you're gonna have to let go of your idea of your mom. But you know the thing that I kept reminding myself, which is kind of a weird thing, I always thought, if we can have a cloud where we upload pictures, and, you know, our documents and our lives, basically, if we can upload them and update them into a cloud. It dawned on me one day, I thought, well, the universe is much more clever than we are. I just felt like my mom is uploaded somewhere, who she is, what she believes, her thoughts, all her memories, are uploaded somewhere, and that when she goes she's going to be reunited with them again. I mean, I really believe that consciousness is that is that perfect, and it's that complete. And I just believe that we will when our human bodies, when that, when the fucking memory stick doesn't work anymore, our physical bodies, and we can't upload anymore, we can't store the information for whatever reason. It's not firing, it's just not going. When I started thinking about the wonders of what what is out there, I thought, why not consider those things? Why not think about impossible things? And I totally know that my mom is completely uploaded back into a memory stick that's functional and that works. And I think I told you girls, years ago, mom used to say, well, Jann, your your your soul is your pilot and your body is your spaceship. And I would just have to be like, yes, that is, that is quite true. And she'd say, you cannot breathe up there. That's why you can't when you die, you can't take your body like she used to say remarkable things to me, and I'd be like, okay, yeah. So when I started considering the profound idea of science fiction, quantum physics, all the things that were given. Examples of in our day to day life, but we, we just don't see them because we're too busy on the fucking internet and we're too busy doing, you know, stupid, stupid human things. But I think start entertaining all those whimsical things. She will be reunited. I think, I think people that have memory loss, obviously, have, you know, physical brain issues, but they're also straddling the veil. I think they have one foot here, and they have one foot on the other side of, you know, of living, and there's a disconnect there, and they're kind of waiting for themselves to go, and it's hard when they linger for years and years and years, and your mom could live fucking 20 years. I'm going to tell you that right now, it can be a really, really long journey. Make sure you lean on your friends. Make sure you think about, you know, long term care and nursing care. There's no harm in that. There is a lot of federally funded things. There's more available to you than when I went through this 10 years ago, but a lot of good things. I quit drinking, I ended a terrible relationship. I changed my life when my mom got sick, because I knew I wanted to live and I wanted to to be there for my mom. So my mom's horrible, horrible illness profoundly affected who I am and where I'm headed now. So I'm grateful for that, but she's fucking fine. She's So Fine. She's She's somewhere feeding birds and having a great time, but it's going to be hard, but you can do hard things. You can do it. You can do really shitty things, and you can still learn to laugh. Make sure you keep laughing. It's going to be funny and it's gonna be heartbreaking, but don't stop laughing. Well,

1:06:43  
my heart goes out to Erica, and it makes me recall the story I heard. I think it's a Japanese fable, and it's about these two water buckets that were carried by their owner down to the well every day and filled with water and carried back to the cottage. And one of the water buckets was getting really old and cracked and and it was leaking. And the analogy here is that when our brains start failing, our memory starts failing, and we start losing things. That is what was happening to this bucket. It was losing the water. So by the time it was back in the cottage, there's just half of the water that was put in it to begin with. And this bucket, you know, is having a crisis and saying, you know, I'm obviously not able to to to do my job anymore, and I can't be of service anymore. And and look at me not being able to sustain you or sustain life anymore. And the other bucket says, What are you talking about? Look, and points at the path from the well to the cottage. And one side is full of flowers, flowers flowers that are growing alongside the path, and that's when the leaky bucket had been watering the plants all along. So the analogy is, you may not be retaining information or memory in the same way as you did before, but you are still able to water the flowers around you and pass joy and bring joy to your environment and see life just in a different way.

1:08:29  
Oh, God. Well, let's hope we're all watering flowers somewhere when we get to be 90 years old, we might be doing it with our urine and our incontinence, but it's a beautiful story. I love a good parable. I think those stories are lasting because they're meaningful and they make really complicated ideas very simple for people to understand. So Erica, we're thinking about you for sure.

1:08:55  
Okay, guys, we're just going to give you the date, and then you're going to come over to Patreon to hear some other conversation for today, including more details about the show. So we are going to be at the National Music Center in Calgary, a place you've been. How many times, Jann, I feel like they said they have so much of your shit backstage and in the storage closet.

1:09:12  
They've got my grad dress in a glass case. So if you want to see my grad dress that my mother made me, it's there. What an archived masterpiece that is.

1:09:23  
So Friday, September 19, during a podcast conference that's going to be called pod summit in Calgary, we have fit in a live show where we're selling tickets. Ticket details will be in the show notes, ticket details and more discussion about this will be on over at Patreon, where you get a pre sale and a little discount if you're one of our only chance

1:09:47  
only Janns I know so damn good. Caitlin, that's our show today. Thordis Elva, thank you so much for joining us here from interesting and. My pleasure all the things that you spoke about, and where people can find some solace and some help is going to be the show notes. Tortoise has an amazing book called self of forgiveness. There is an audio book of that in English. She just completed the one like six weeks ago, seven weeks ago, and finally, in Icelandic, so her own people can get that on Audible. But you can find the book on Amazon. You can find the book everywhere. It's, it's all over the world, and I think it was translated like 17 different times in countries all over the place. So it's, it's a really remarkable book. And I'm not just saying that because I love you. I'm saying that because it's a really remarkable book. Also a TED talk. I just just trying to sell you here, just, there's also an amazing TED Talk. Your agent note and the

1:10:41  
TED she's getting percentages, I promise Yes,

1:10:45  
anyhow, check the show notes and look after yourselves. And if you want to come and do our Patreon with us, sort of, you're more than welcome. We'll be talking about some of the worst dates. Maybe you have a worst date that you can tell us about, or the best date. Caitlin, any final thoughts?

1:11:02  
I'm just so happy that Thor just got to join us and to sort of like, educate us all about our online safety a little bit more. Because I just if I had $1 for every single one of these stories that I see pop up and start trending, I could retire. So thank you for being our pleasure. Was mine

1:11:16  
until we see you guys again. Come and join us on Patreon. You can join up for five bucks, $7 if you want to be a book bag member. We read books every month, and we do a big zoom call, and we put Tickets on sale that you can get a discount on. There's lots of perks to this, and you can hear some of the craziest stories that you've ever heard in your lives by three amazing women who know what the fuck they're talking about. No, we don't. That's a disclaimer. Okay, we'll see you next time, thanks for listening to you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai