All The Cool Girls Get Fired with Laura Brown & Kristina O'Neill

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welcome to Jann Arden podcast. Caitlin green Sarah Burke, are here as always, in their Toronto homes. I am in spring bank, Alberta. It snowed yesterday, but I digress. We have amazing guests today. They are two powerhouses in the media world, Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill and they have co authored a fantastic new book called all the cool girls get fired. Who has not been there. Laura is the founder of Lb media, the chair of red's creative Council, and serves on several major boards, including the metoo movement. Previously, she was the editor in chief of in Style magazine, executive editor of Harper's Bazaar and senior editor of W magazine. Christina is the head of Sotheby's media and editor in chief of Sotheby's magazine. She is the former editor in chief of The Wall Street Journal Magazine and executive editor of Harper's Bazaar, and she's done all this while balancing being a mom together. They've written this unbelievably smart, funny and empowering guide to turning, you know, career shit balls into comebacks and a reminder that getting fired is not failure. It's just part of the story. Welcome to you. Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill, thanks for being on

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the podcast today. What a heady introduction. Thank you. Well, you

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know, when I'm reading through this last couple of days, I'm going, my God, I mean, that's so impressive. So of course, you guys have been in positions, probably for the last 25 years, of peril in the workplace. And maybe the obvious question, and it's not like you haven't been asked this 1000 times already, but we need to ask it, what was the catalyst to you guys getting together and going, Christina, we need to write a fucking book, because this is something happening constantly, and women need to be reminded. We go forward. I love peril.

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You want to take it, Christina, because I'm just, I'm just I'm just sitting here with peril and enjoying it.

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Well, it was actually an Instagram post that kicked off this whole, you know, what we heard was becoming a movement. I was fired 14 months after Laura had been fired from in style, and as all good friends do when it happens to the other one, we went for drinks. Laura had the idea to post on Instagram a very cute picture of us with the caption, all the cool girls get

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fired, a sober idea. Let me, let me, just to be clear, on the way to the drinks, we came up with this carry on.

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So that night we posted, the response was instantaneous. We were overwhelmed by the number of women who commented, saying things like, Oh, my God, it happened to me. Me too. I've never admitted it. Oh, wow. You guys are owning it. Bad asses, you know, bosses, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, we went to bed sort of like, oh, wow, gosh, look at all this. And I woke up the next morning and called Laura after, you know, sleeping on it, and said, This is a book

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that was two and a half years ago. And even then, you know, the ill winds were certainly circling in media because us getting, you know, canned. I love shit. Bullshit. Canned is what I like to say, Jan. So I'm with you on the on the verbiage, no, we, we knew even then that, you know, the layoffs were starting to happen around us, and it was becoming bigger than us. We could never have known that. Two and a half years later, we're in this position in the United States with just the absolute hundreds of 1000s of people losing their job. Be it via, you know, AI the Trump administration, you know, I'm sure in Canada, at least, the tech changes are so huge as well, and we knew that we could provide a service, and the service came from in the first place us just really owning it and being like, we actually really good at what we do, and we got fired. And these two things more often than not, coexist, more often than not, you're not a failure. If you got fired, you are part of a balance sheet. You know, you were a number. So we were like, We urged everyone we're like, we didn't have any shame in it, and we didn't take it personally, and that's what we knew, along with all of the other tips and tools that we were trying to learn we wanted to share in the book.

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I think good things come out of bad things, and this is really the quintessential example of really crappy things happening, and you guys being able to connect in a moment that is not planned. It's not premeditative. It stemmed from having a sense of honesty with yourself and vulnerability of putting that out there.

4:31  
So I, too, am a member of the cool girls who have gotten fired fan club. Yeah. Love it, and it's funny because so I had been flipped onto your book because I shared this club membership with a good friend of mine, Meredith Shaw, both of us were Yeah, so both of us were previously in radio, together at the same radio station, and then she went on to do TV. I stayed in radio. I got shake hands in radio. She got shake hands in TV. It was just a whole nice, fun bonding experience. Science. But so she posts this, and it was interesting because her thoughts on the book were very similar to my thoughts after having read it, which is that it is so positive and empowering and practical. And so I'm just wondering if this is a place that you guys found yourselves immediately upon being let go, like did you arrive there right away? Or is this sort of, you know, a years long process for you, because after I was let go, this is exactly what I was looking for, because I I didn't feel like overwhelmed emotionally, you know, there was definitely some self worth stuff that was being parsed out with my therapist after the fact, but overwhelmingly, I did feel like I want to do other things, and I want to still feel excited and like this is the beginning of a new chapter. It's not the end of the whole book altogether. So like, did you guys get there quickly, or were you How did that journey? We

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didn't know we definitely did the hard yards, because we didn't know this stuff. Now we were sitting, you know, there with dead eyes, looking at and you guys have socialized health care, right? So you don't have the absolute healthcare shit show that we have to deal with. So we're sitting there looking on websites. I was in a position having to start to pay for my mind and my husband's healthcare. We're navigating all of this stuff that you just don't know and it makes you feel, and we are, by all descriptions, privileged, successful ladies, right? And felt extremely vulnerable in so many of these things that we didn't know how to handle and we didn't know how to set up, and we were going and Googling things. And Christina would call me after she got fired, when I need a lawyer. Who do I call? You know, there's all this stuff that we did have to navigate. I navigated for a year before Christina was fired, and then, and then she did. So all of it sort of became this cumulative learnings that we sort of had inside our heads by the time, you know, that we did this Instagram post and we weren't thinking, Oh, we're gonna package it all up. I'm gonna make a book. It wasn't, was a stupid Instagram post, but so it's sort of a blend of this kind of sort of ownership, which we had immediately, like, mentally, like, it sucked, and, you know, and it's we knocked out of you, and you don't know what you're gonna do, but we both knew we were good, you know, we didn't take it as an indictment on our skills. And we again, urge no one to do that. But then we were like, Okay, that's great that we know we're good, but we've got all this shit to handle now, you know, and the immediate stresses that everyone has. Number one, we sort of chart them in the book, like a terror alert, you know, like, number one is money, number two is healthcare, number three is mental health. And how can we address all of those things so your best friend or your mom or whatever, can give it to you then and there. So we've heard that a lot. We wish we'd had this or even before it came out. Oh, can I please get in advance? Can I please, you know, how can I get my hands on

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this? Why do you think we take it so personally? Anyone that loses a position, we immediately think we must be terrible. We don't know what we're doing. A lot of times. It's a reflection on the person that gets fired, but definitely the reflection on the person in leadership that either doesn't recognize how to nurture people and to get the best out of them, or a personality rub. And I think sometimes just not getting along with someone can cause you. It's not because you're not doing your job. It's just because you don't see eye to eye with a person, and that's kind of a hard pill to swallow. You can't push a rope, and you can't make somebody like you, and you can't make people respect you if they don't respect you. So sometimes I feel like they're doing you a huge favor by splitting the sheets, as it were, yeah.

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I mean, I think a great example of that in the book is what happens to Oprah, right? I mean, she was fired because the men who worked with her just didn't respect her, didn't have a lot of faith in her future at the network. And, you know, I think she had the last laugh. But, you know, I think that was a just such a reminder that even someone as you know, well regarded and as hyped as she was when she started in Baltimore, at that new job, she came in with, you know, billboards all over town, bus posters, etc, etc. And, you know, at the end of the day, she just didn't gel with the you know gentlemen. Who were, you know, her co anchors, yeah, but yeah, of course, you take it personally, even in a mass layoff. You know, when there's, you know, 7000 of your colleagues, you're still going to sit there and be like, What did I do wrong? But unfortunately, in this era, you know, when we are seeing huge percentages of companies having to make, you know, these enormous shifts in personnel, it isn't, I would say in 98% of the cases, it's not personal. They're making entire decisions, like in Laura's case, you know, to completely close a division. So it wasn't anything to do with her leadership. It was, you know, something that was completely beyond her control. And I think that's the thing you know we want to remind women, is they're not alone. This is happening. It's a widespread it's like an epidemic, and the sooner you identify what's happening and talk about it, you know, the faster you're going to be able to get back up.

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Has this opened up a whole new set of opportunities for both of you, I would imagine, with a book that has come out of the gate so strongly and really, like you said, resonated with 10s of 1000s of of people. And men too. I've seen comments from men going, I got canned too. Like it's, it's interesting to, you know, to hear them. Not be afraid to pipe in and go, been there, done that. But obviously the demand for, I would imagine, speaking to this and going in and lecturing and talking to people has opened up, you know, a whole new realm of opportunity.

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We think it's very funny that neither one of us has ever read a self help book, but we appear to have written one. Well, so we're, it's so crazy. We're like, Oh, we're gonna self help, okay? Or even the business section is just so funny to both of us. For so many reasons, I think that the gift of this is the trust that so many women have placed in us. You know, even through the process of writing the book, we had women. We said, please write to all the cool girls email if you have a story, you know. And always when we were unloading themselves, I've actually never admitted this and, you know, telling us all these stories, many of which we feature in the book. But even since then, in person, you know, we, I mean, we've been out and about on tour. And even we were in DC a couple of weeks ago, and we did a Vital Voices event. And DC is an absolute mess, obviously, because so many layoffs there, and the probably the majority of women we talked to had lost their jobs, and just to be able to engage and have them trust you and have you like if anyone comes up to me and says, I'm a cool girl, I do a high five, and you can just see the disposition change, just even in that moment, even you going going back to your stress and whatever the stuff you got to deal with, but just like you're in the club, you're cool, you know what you're doing, you're not alone. There's a whole world out there for you, but you've got to put up your hand, and to see the women who've really put up their hands has been an absolute thrill. And again, yeah, we're only, like, three weeks in, so

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no, it's incredible. Yeah. My dad used to say, Jan, the worst marriages don't end in divorce. They don't end. And I used to think, well, sometimes we all have found ourselves in positions where on our side of the fence, we're kind of going I haven't been happy for a long time. I don't really know what I'm doing as far as my future, or where I'm going to move to within the structure of this company. And I often think sometimes these things happen, and it's sort of been in the back of your mind anyway, like, if you really take the time to think about it, it was for me,

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yeah. I mean, we have a chapter called firing yourself, the best chapter, in my opinion. I loved it. No. I mean, I think this is an opportunity to reframe work in general, not just getting fired. And, you know, we we talk a little bit about why, you know, the corner office has to be the end game, and with work not linear anymore. You know, when people are taking on multiple opportunities, you know, we live in a gig economy now, where you can consult. You can have a part time thing. You can be writing a book. You could be hosting, you know, so many creative people, whether it's in media or other you know, entertainment industries are, you know, sort of doing multiple jobs. You know, why does this sort of, like, climb up a straight line ladder have to

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be the goal. Can I? Can I read a tiny excerpt from this chapter that I saved for myself this morning. Remember, as we discussed at the beginning of this book, your job is not your identity. It is not your value, and your job never owned you. So the faster you separate yourself from it, the better. The only thing you were doing was lending your credibility, your value and your talents to an organization. And the key word there is lend, not give, not own. Your lending, you're like a book being returned to the library. Now someone who is more deserving of it can check the book out. So to bastardize Ice Cube check out before you're wrecked.

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Most of that is the brilliant Natasha Bowman, I will claim the ice cube line. But no, we it's the best comparison, you know. And it does really hit that, you know. And it's like, no, it's yours. You are the book. You are the skills, you are the knowledge.

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And this is the idea for any of our listeners who who don't know. Like, sure, there's a lot about getting fired in this book, but there's also this idea of removing yourself from something that's not good for you. So can you guys talk about that a little bit? Yeah. I mean, we have

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a lot of friends who are in jobs that they don't love, and they are the least exciting friends to go have dinner with. It's all they want to talk about, is how miserable they are, yeah? And I think, you know, when, when we came to this book, we felt like it was really important to address, you know, I think there's like, there's sort of like an evolution, right? There's the sort of dog with the head out the window, which I think is how Laura would describe herself. She was in a job where she sort of saw the writing on the wall. Had started fantasizing about what could come after. You know, she obviously didn't see the firing coming, but they're the people who like me, like could have just stayed in the job forever, like, had no plan, had no insurance policy, had not updated my LinkedIn, my resume, not downloaded a contact I was so ill prepared when I got fired, it wasn't funny. And then I think there are people who hopefully will read this chapter and self reflect and think about like, is my job fulfilling me? Is this what I want the rest of my life to look like? Take. And if I could take some ownership over the fact that maybe it's not the thing I always want to be doing, what can I do to put myself in a position so that I'm better off for it and take that leap?

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I'd like to talk a little bit about ageism for women in particular, I think women are discovering more and more now because of social media, because of a sense of community with other women, all these conversations that are surrounding menopause and things like that, that women still feel like they get to a certain age and that that's it. And I'd really like to get either of you, both of your your takes on you know, say you're 52 and getting fired, or 55 and getting fired. I think a lot of women really find a heaviness in that. But you see examples in life all the time. Julia Childs didn't start cooking until she was 50 and and we see these stories constantly. Grandma Moses was 80 when she started doing her first paintings. That may be a reference that is lost. Yeah, it was, it was Grandma Moses, exactly. But if you can speak to, you know, whatever age you're at, and how that,

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we think, you know, it's funny. We were just thinking about this. We work in media, and I think that as you age, your experience grows what you know, grows your contact list, grows your your references, grow your maturity grows. Like, we don't tend to, like, put a lot of stock in it, because it's just so it's like, okay, this is like, if you're, if you have the DNA for your job, you'll do well on your job. Like, the shame thing we're talking about earlier, sometimes the age stuff is, is a lot in your head, like, oh, you know, I must be, I must have aged out. I must be too old. Well, you're not gonna walk into an interview being like, Oh, I'm probably too old. You know, if you can, if you're carrying that, I think if you're curious, and you have experience, and again, we've all been working like, I was 47 I'm 51 now. So if I got fired now, you know, yes, it would. I'm not, because I bloody work for myself. But point me is all of this, all of you stand on all your experience. You know, sometimes you let that go in your head, and that's sometimes when you go, Oh, maybe I've I've aged, but you're forgetting your 30 years of experience that you've had in the workplace, right since probably 20 years old, earlier than that. Like, that's not nothing. And again, so much of this is a head game. So much of this is like, what women place on themselves when the rest of the room sometimes, like we always, we say, all the time, we would go to events afterwards, thinking everyone's talking about us because we got fired. No one gave a shit. You know what I mean? Everyone's like, interested in their own stuff. If you're, if the job is right for you and you, you project that, and it is in your DNA, I think you'll get the job. But if you want to hire some 24 year old social media manager. I'm going to hope the 52 year old lady ain't going for that, you know, and also understands that her skills and work can maybe propel her, like to what Christina was saying different sorts of work, and not necessarily the one that she'd been on the track on for years, and maybe wasn't that fulfilled by. And we use in an analogy in a book, it's kind of like becomes a sand pit you go to every day, right? And it gets a bit stinkier and stinkier. But, you know, the sand pit? Could you keep going? Because that's what and then you get fired, and you realize there was a beach the entire time you've been ritually going into this place. So, so much of it. But look, we also understand that, like, life is not a vision board, you know, you have to you get fired, you've got money. I think about all those pragmatic things to think about. But while all that's going on, we have this sort of, and this does apply to women of all ages. Sort of the best advice that I think in the book is from the New York Times, money, commerce, Ron Lieber, and he says, you know, you know, if you have more money, you have more time. We all know that, you know. But everybody has a minute to think about what made you more happy and less happy over the course of your career, what can you do going forward to increase the happiness and decrease the unhappiness? And if you've got 30 years of experience, that's a lot to think about. And again, you might have to take a job the next day because you've got to pay the rent, of course, all those things, but just fire up that something in your brain that has been lying dormant, and you might be really surprised by what shows up, and again, where the workplace has shifted to allow you to do that.

19:04  
It's mind boggling to me how closely parallel what you're talking about applies to our personal relationships. Oh, yeah, like I'm listening to you talking, and I'm like, this could be a stagnant relationship of 20 years, 10 years, 30 years, that you see that things, you keep going into the swamps day after day, and you don't see the beautiful resort hotel that's 100 feet away, because you don't believe in yourself. You don't believe that you're you're worth it, and it does come down to an idea of self worth. But I'm gonna, I know Caitlin's got so many questions, so I'm going

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to throw it over to you. Kate, well, I do. I have sort of a very specific question, and it was, it's to Christina, because in your intro, you mentioned that after being let go, you quote, demanded the company pay for a tequila soaked bye bye bash. And I just want to know about this story. Specifically. I want to know more about that, because it's not a clause. I. Have ever seen included in like a Separation Agreement, but it is one that immediately pleased

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me. Yes, some people want to keep their computers. I wanted a party because I was one of one, right? So I was the only one leaving, and my team stayed. And I wanted closure. I wanted to have that moment where we could come together and acknowledge the great run we had, you know. And I think the fact that, you know, we got to expense it was even better. I hope it would have happened either way, but it was fabulous that it was an expensed engagement, you know. I think it was really important for me to be able to thank them and for them, you know, it was a big moment for everyone. And we did all the band kind of just disbanded after that, you know, my leaving then had knock on effects over the course of, you know, there's still impacts from my leaving. And I was really blessed that we were able to kind of have that, like, one last throw down and, like cry and laugh and take a lot of whispers and share a lot of memories.

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Do you think that that party gave you some added closure? Oh, for sure, because I do think that there is such a missing piece, obviously, in the way that people are let go, considering the fact that, as you've outlined in this conversation and in your book, that we are kind of living in a layoff era. So it is going to happen to a lot of Taylor's layoffs. It is we're gonna lay off era. And part of it is that, you know, I was let go. I was like, going, I'm I was a public facing figure, right? Because I was on the air and on the radio, so people listened to me. So I would release my own sort of statement. I posted out on Instagram. And I was in a uniquely nice position, because then I received all this positive feedback from listeners. I was just inundated with comments and messages. And very few people receive that kind of validation when they're let go from a job that isn't public facing, and, you know, they're let go over a zoom call, it's like eulogies, Yeah, but you're still alive, yeah. And so I do think that, you know, it's a strange thing to say,

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but it's, yeah, I think it's really important. Whatever closure is, like, I think it's necessary. I think companies need

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to do that the zoom, goodbye and then you skulk off into the night, isn't good,

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no. But again, a lot of that comes from, like, Yes, I mean, you were billboard fired and we were billboard fired. Like, press release, public media fired. So people do learn about that fast, and they come back to you. But even, like, if you're fired from Starbucks, like, you've got to admit it, because then people will write you these things, and people will show up, but they won't if they don't know, yes, you know. And so, like, I found that hugely comforting, that sort of the eulogies while alive part, you know, people telling me how just terrific I was, you know. And on that first day when I'm, like, sitting on the bed trying to, you know, field all this stuff, like an hour after we all got laid off. So there is, there is a real sort of beauty in that. And you take all of it on, and it does kind of

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fluff you up a bit. And I think it's good for the team, my team, they all took a beautiful blank book, and everyone wrote a page, and it was kind of like a yearbook, you know. And it was that like moment for them to just sort of like, say one nice reflection, and that for me, I mean, I keep this book like, it's literally, like, next to my bed. You know what? I mean, it is something that took me a minute to be able to read it. To be fair, I couldn't like, oh God, but I'm really happy it exists.

23:16  
How would you reconcile when you're not afforded the luxury of saying the goodbye and getting the closure. Have either of you had that type of experience? I gave 30 days notice and was locked out of my email in the middle of a meeting, right? So it was a very different experience for

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me. Now we were canned then and there. We were canned at the end of the day. We were we were cut off, blah, blah, blah. So now it was, we were texting going, does anyone know how to download contacts like, you know? And then I, yeah, it's, you're all just like, Beatles on their back. I don't know Brian, Brian, does Brian now, you know, and, but that's okay, because you kind of, if you're all, you know, that is one silver lining of being in a group, you know, you can try and help each other. And then we tried to, like, HR each other, like, for a while. I was, I was really, I knew I wasn't going to work for anyone ever again. Didn't know I was going to do that as soon as I was but I was, you know, spent my time trying to get my assistant a job, and this and that and the other and, you know, and I think that you do, you are bonded by that.

24:15  
I just want to address this just really quickly. And it may not have anything to do with your experiences in particular, but anger and revenge, I don't know. I just, you know, I think initially, like anything else in life, there's that's those stages that we go through. So can we talk a little bit about that? Like, did that exist? Like, I'm gonna fucking put a burning shit on your stoop, and when you go to stamp the flames out, you're gonna have shit all the way up to your chin, I don't

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know, but

24:55  
no, I'm just saying this. I've worked for myself for decades, too. Exactly. Be. But I'm just saying, I think in relationships and things like that, I felt, you know, kind of vengeful. Oh, I'll get you. I just want to put that out there, like, those feelings there at all. I

25:10  
think it depends on how much look what we say. Sometimes it's great to have your friends go like, Fuck them, they suck. Like, you know, your immediate ass offenses, that they can be your worst self, perfect, because, like burning bridges, all that you know, because it is, it is a long game, and things come around. I think whatever, whatever feels you know, feels about you. But I think one time, if you are angry, and all that which we all are in that moment, but you have to really reconcile how much power you're giving to them while feeling those feelings and how much you're letting them still loom over your psyche, you know? And that's, yeah, that's where you and to remember where your power is. And you're the library book, and you're going to go after the library and kind of screw them. What are they saying? There's a god bless their hearts, you know, like that. Yeah, that, I think that that, that is, that is where more strength comes from in the long game. But, yeah, you can fantasize about stuff. Your friends can do that on your behalf, like all of that. That's like fun in the moment. You know, it's certainly friends either, you know, you can't keep, like, the group chat about like, Oh my God. And even in the meeting, when you all left, you all been fired, and then someone's still talking about it. It helps

26:18  
nobody. Yeah, bitterness does not behoove anyone. For sure, I think outwardly it, it just is not great. It's so nice to be able to walk away with your shoulders back and your head up and and let your friends do the shit talking. I totally agree with that. Like, have some kind of a thread where you're just like, God, his suits were so terrible, or, you know, something that

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when it when it, when it doesn't serve you. You know what I mean? Yeah, that that sort of, I use a terrible analogy. It's like picking a scab. It's disgusting, but you know, never gonna heal up.

26:50  
Proudest moments of what you guys have unleashed through, you know, that simple conversation and affirmation about being fired and have it, having it kind of be a cool thing. It's fascinating book and, and I think you've opened this conversation is so much bigger than you guys probably thought. And you must be really proud of yourselves, like, it's such a neat phoenix rising out of the ashes. Moment, I love it.

27:18  
Christina, you wanna go?

27:20  
Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think the most rewarding part has just been connecting with all the women who, you know, didn't have the words, the courage, the strength, and this book is sort of filling a gap in the conversation. You know, we've met a lot of people who have said it's a shortcut. They've they've read it, they're now owning what happened to them. And, you know, just having that dialog with women who've been through it has been really wild, you know, because whether it's Oprah, Lisa Kudrow, me and Laura, or all the women that we're connecting with, like everyone in that moment felt the same. And I think that the universal, you know, sort of like taking back the power from something like this has been really meaningful. The

28:04  
rebranding of the entire experience, you know, we had a woman write to us on LinkedIn, and she ran a giant she was Inspector General of a huge government department, and she was dozed. She was one of those Doge layoffs that happened in one line, you know, earlier in the year. And huge job, you know, huge job. And she and she said, Yes, this happened to me. It really rocked me. I'd attach myself to it. I'm now starting my own consultancy. And then she signed her name, and then underneath it she wrote, cool girl that, you know, it's just that complete switch, you know, of just owning it and moving on and getting it, getting your swag back, you know, and steering your own course, and all of that. Even a woman the other day, and she was like, Oh, I got laid off, and I had this sort of bad boyfriend and and so I wasn't really focused on on that, and I broke up with him. And then I read your money chapter, and I realized I could apply for unemployment retroactively, and I just got a few $1,000 because, like, just this, just this ownership back, and this power back, any, anytime we hear that, that is the greatest thrill.

29:06  
I think what you amazing women have done is remove shame from the experience, and that's the word that really comes to the forefront of my thinking, is the removal of shame. And we all, we all need that because it's a useless feeling. It serves nobody, and so good on you. Because God, if we can lift that from that important part of our careers and our and as we make our way forward, that's gold, and that's something you can hang hopes on, and that's something you can rebuild from with the absence of shame. So all the cool girls get fired, and you got to read this book. Thank you very much for being on the podcast today, on behalf of Sarah and myself. Yeah, we're just, well, you know, we're all kind of, the girls are kind of coming from firings, layoffs, trying to, you know, create new things. And. A I'm the matriarch of our group, so I'm constantly reminding them that things are going to be okay. God damn it. And Christina, Laura, thank you so much. You guys are we really are cool, and it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.

30:17  
Stay in touch. This was so awesome. Thank you so much. Our best to Canadian and sorry about the Blue Jays. I love them. Oh, too soon. Is it too soon? Okay?

30:27  
You know what? No kind of cool girls when you think about it, good. Rephrase,

30:31  
amazing. Thank you for writing that

30:33  
book, guys, thank you.

30:34  
Yeah, thanks for writing it.

30:42  
You welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jann Arden, Sarah Burke, Caitlin green, that was a great conversation, and you made a good point in that conversation. Caitlin, about the Blue Jays, who we have all kind of had a few days to gather our hearts back up off the floor, and, you know, just have that collective sigh of relief. But they are essentially, like you said, Caitlin, cool girls, yeah, facing disappointment and failure.

31:10  
They're the cool girls of sports. And I think that, you know, yes, it has been heartbreaking because they came so close, because they're such a great team. But I heard, and I'm forgetting his name now, but he is a 44 year ESPN Sports like veteran, and he was saying how he thinks that they've really changed the way teams are going to structure themselves and play baseball right now, this has been an amazing lesson. They were, by far the beloved team in this series, even for people watching in the US, they have rallied a whole new group of fans behind baseball, knowing that little kids watching get to grow up watching.

31:47  
Why? Caitlin? I just gonna have you explain that a bit, because

31:51  
they are such a team that they show the Brotherhood, the Brotherhood, the friendship, and they've all spoken so publicly about their affection for one another. You know, Ernie Clement is one. I did. Yeah, so Sarah, but like, they talk about how, like, really, how much they care about each other. And the coach talks about how special the team is, and everyone talks about how special the team is, and the connection they have on the field, the support they have, you know, Vladdy, who's, like, this longtime veteran saying that if anyone gets nervous tonight, look over at me, like and acknowledging everyone's role in getting them there right, because there's always going to be star players on every team, but to make the under the new players feel really included, to have someone like Trey Savage, who's a 22 year old rookie making 57 grand a year come out like there's just, I can't keep track of how many inspiring things there are about this team. And so I think it's a great tie in to our previous conversation, because they are going to take this win that they've had like, they're still ALDs champions. They still made it to friggin game seven of the World Series,

32:55  
unbelievable and a tied game like it couldn't have been more equal. They were as good as the Dodgers. And this was just a numbers game. Had they played 10 more games, that thing would have, that pendulum would have kept swinging back and forth. And

33:10  
like, you know, they're, of course, like they're well matched, except for in their budget. I mean, the Dodgers have $100 million difference in their in everything that they spend money on. So, you know, we were the Goliath and to the David of the Dodgers and so ever and so everyone loved us. We we might not, like the Jays might have lost the World Series, but they won everyone's hearts. And they're all saying, like, run it back for 2026 they're not looking at this going, like, Oh, boo hoo. Like, of course, they're disappointed. They're like, let's go. And I like that energy, and that was really the energy of the of Christina and Laura that they had when they were let go. And I sort of like piggybacking off of that energy to say, yep, you know, feel it, it's It hurts, it sucks. But like, Let's go forward. We've had an amazing, amazing season of baseball, crazy playoff series to get to watch. And I wish there was a parade for them now. Like, I'd go, I would go. The whole

34:00  
city would go to that. Do you think, do you guys, you would have a sense of this? Do you think it made Americans look at Canada with in a kinder light and and kind of saw what Canadian spirit was all about. To me, I was just like, I think this is such a cool opportunity for someone in, you know, Florida or North Carolina, or someone who's watching the World Series going Canada, they got, you know, I just think it was such a great example of what it is to be Canadian.

34:29  
I feel like the Kinder light thing has always been there for us Canadians, but I think that there may have been a yearning for what we have, for sure.

34:39  
Okay, so I was just gonna hit on that 100% that because I was reading some of the Instagram posts from the wives and girlfriends of these players. And obviously they're not all but they're not Canadian. Most of them are from the US, and they were previously with us teams, but they're living they're based there. They talk about coming here and being in Canada and being part of this team, and why it was so special. And they. Said, like from the minute we got here, we just felt different. We loved it. They loved the city, they loved the country, they loved the fans, they loved the team, they loved everything about being here. And I do think, and I've heard, you know, it's retired players who are sports commentators now, but talk about how like that is the dream of a player is to play on a team like that and to feel the way that these players feel about each other. So I do think they're probably envious of it, and they've even acknowledged it. Though I forget the name of the Dodgers player, but he has been out with a serious family matter, so he's been out on leave. His number is 51 and I think it was in game six. They all wore 51 drawn on their hats. The Jays did, like class acts, and they just said, like everyone watching this was just said, These are exceptional guys. This is sportsmanship at its very best. And what an amazing thing to see in the middle of really cutthroat competition that they still took time to acknowledge that they had a player on the opposing team who was going through something personal.

35:53  
And how about Vladi showing up with the women's hockey jersey? Mary like, come on. Such class acts.

36:01  
Yeah, it's pretty impressive, but I just know the sadness was palpable. You know when, when they lost. I mean, right now I have a blue jay at my bird feeder. Hi. It looks just like the little hat.

36:16  
Saturday morning, a blue jay landed on the fence in mom and dad's backyard, and I had slept over from the game on Friday night to watch game seven, and my mom's like, that's a positive woman. Look, we have a blue jay. No.

36:28  
I mean, hope grows eternal, and I think it all teaches us about competition and being a class act. I thought the Dodgers were very classy winners. I thought they complimented the JS, the organization. I felt like they said this was the best team in the fucking world, like we had our this could have gone anyway. They spoke so genuinely kindly of even though they were affected by the camaraderie of our team, they looked at them like we can rip a page out of that book. We don't have to be like famous the richest player in baseball, guy we can be, have some humility and still and still benefit from, you know, being on an award winning, not an award winning, but a the team that won the winning goddamn thing. Why is it called the World Series? Of my nephew asked me that he's like Andy Jen, why is it the World Series when it's not the world so it

37:22  
should be the North American series. Yeah, the World Series is because the first official championship in 1903 was dubbed the World Championship Series, a name that was later shortened at the time the United States was the only country with major professional baseball leagues, so the name reflected the perception that the Championship between the two American leagues would be the best in the world. Okay, there is a World Baseball Classic coming up. And my Japanese girlfriend, Natalie Wakabayashi, whose entire family is into the baseball has played baseball like that. Is coming up in

37:53  
March 20 huge in Japan. Baseball is huge in Japan. If it

37:57  
wasn't, we got to watch some of those players. Oh, my

38:00  
God, I was gonna say for Japan. I don't know how the Dodgers would have done without.

38:05  
Wasn't the wasn't the MVP, one of the Japanese members, the between

38:10  
Yamamoto and Shohei Ohtani, the one hilarious question that came in the media scrum after which was to show Hey, from an influencer, actually, I think her account is baseball baddies. She said, Would you rather face, oh, Tony, as a pitcher or as a runner?

38:25  
So Jan, he's a pitcher and he's, he goes.

38:28  
I watched some of it, and he's so impressive, even as a batter. Oh

38:32  
my god. I remember Kyle commenting, when we were watching it, that like he's, you know, it's rare that you see a pitcher on the mound have dirt on his pants because he was just finished batting, and he slid into a bag, and now he's back on the mound. Like, oh, tawny was incredibly lovable to watch. And he just, he kind of has just a nice way about him, like a very sweet looking face, and he just seems like a nice, classy, but

38:56  
no more dancing. No more dancing. I don't need

38:59  
more dancing, right? Anyway, right? Noted, but anyways, I think it's great. They're the cool girls of baseball and and we love them. And I'm just going to throw it out there. If there was a parade, I think a lot of Toronto would

39:10  
go. I just want to, you know, sticking to our theme today, with all the cool girls, get fired, with Laura and Christina, and do go out and grab that book. I'm pretty sure it's on Audible and Kindle. It's at your libraries if you want to rent it, if you are someone who has gone through that, or has a partner that's gone through that, or a child that has gone through a firing, or, you know, even a even a big breakup, I'm telling you, there's valuable kind of lessons of how to carry yourself through those difficult times. And look at these girls like from a comment, a random comment, it turned into something really big. So don't underestimate the little things that happen to you. Don't underestimate conversations that happen over a cup of coffee with a girlfriend about, you know, starting a business or having a creative idea. Don't ever. Think these are just idle. Oh, it was nothing. We just were talking about blah, blah, blah, everything the beginning. Yeah, don't, don't do that to yourself. You know, going back to years ago, Arlene Dickinson and I Caitlin worked on a podcast that we had called the business of life. And Arlene and I had gone for dinner, and Arlene actually said to me, we need to do a podcast. She goes, I love our conversations at dinner. We always talk about cool things, and so. And of course, Caitlin was involved in that as a producer from the get go. And, you know, here we are. This is kind of a spin off when things kind of didn't, you know, continue on with Arlene. And I, you know, I had to rethink, kind of what I was doing, and Caitlin needed to rethink what she was doing. And so we're, I'm kind of living proof of, you know, kind of modifying and changing your approach to things. Yeah,

40:48  
and the incredibly talented, like, you know, media executive who sort of first paired me with you Jan, he was let go, and then he started his own consulting company. So it's like, I started to realize the longer, because, like, I was at Bell for, you know, 14 years, and so the longer I was there, I think I started watching people who I really, really admired and looked up to, and who were the shining example of the tippy top of the pyramid that you could get to. I watched them get let go. So I really was like, Oh, well, it's just truly happening to everyone in the case of, like, my specific industry, that it just felt that it was inevitable and that it wasn't personal. But I still think a lot of people, they do experience, as you pointed out. And I think the biggest, the best part about this book is The reframing of of shame, not feeling shame, of reframing it, of rebranding it. And there's a lot of power in that, in not hiding and saying hi. You know, we've made difficult decision that I'm no longer with this, instead of trying to position it and come up with this big PR spin to just be like, Yeah, I was part of a 7000 person layoff or whatever happened to you, yeah, and, and just owning it and being honest, because then you really can, like, move on, because it's not a reflection of anyone's talent. Like, you know, I would say 99% of the time I saw it happen to people, and I was like, Damn, that person was so friggin good. I can't believe it, but it's just our layoff era,

42:05  
guys, in the era where you can own your narrative in whatever way you want, right? Like you doing your own posts. Like, I remember when my shit hit the fan. I was like, Oh, I have a podcast. Like, I can do an episode on literally what happened to me, and it's, it's uncomfortable for a couple weeks for sure. Like, I remember walking a dog that I was dog sitting in the neighborhood, you know, at 10am when you're normally at work, like, right into your second meeting, and being like, okay, now I go to the gym with the moms who've dropped off their kids, and I don't really know what I'm doing with my life, and having no idea what was next. And you're not always supposed to have, you're not always supposed to know what's next. You know, fast forward three, four years later. It's like, I didn't even know what was gonna happen. And Caitlin, I know a lot of your pieces are, you're like, a year behind my stuff that I kind of went through. I think, how do you feel now, it's been, what, like, a year and a half. Yeah,

42:58  
it's so it's, oh, has it? Yeah, has it been two years?

43:02  
Two years will be in February. Oh, my

43:04  
God. It feels longer. It just does. It honestly feels like it's been a lot, like much longer amount of time. To be honest with you, I think, because I look back at so much of you know what's changed in media, I think it has just continued on the same thing that I immediately felt was, like the lack of personalization and the fact that I've seen it happen to so many people, and like Meredith Shaw being such a close friend of mine, and having been let go from the TV show that she was on again in part of just like, random, unceremonious layoffs that happened at all these companies now that was shitty, yeah, because you're in the public eye, right? And, like, and there, you know, there's a lot of other things tied to it. And I think especially when you're public facing, and when you've made it to a certain success level in your life and in your career, it's impossible to say to yourself, Oh, this isn't tied up into some of my identity. You do have to pick that apart. The advantage I think I had was that I had been on mat leave, and so I think that I had discovered a huge new part of my life that existed completely separately from my job. And so I immediately was like, well, still got the best kid in the world. Like, I still have my I think you did see the silver lining 100% I was like, Oh, boo hoo. I get to spend mornings with my kid for a while. So did

44:15  
you Sarah? Like, you know, here you have the women of media Podcast Network. And it's, it came from a difficult place in your life, like, what do I do and how do I not work for somebody else? And, yeah, it hasn't been without its challenges. You know, it's a huge financial undertaking. And you know, how many podcasts are on this network now,

44:37  
20 in two weeks. So,

44:39  
for shit sakes people, you know, and it is about risk and and

44:45  
I also, like, I feel relieved because I now it's funny, I get, like, reached out to by people who I'm friends with in media, when they're let go, and I'll go for drinks with them, or people will reach out, you're the authority, to an extent, for sure. And people reach out to me, or. If they're like, super unhappy in their job, but they're afraid of being let go, even though they don't even really like their job that they have. They're always like, you seem like good. And I'm like, I am good. I do. I really enjoy my life. And I think that if I was to work for someone else again, I would have an entirely different perspective on it. And I just felt, I don't know you just, you feel so like, I guess, just happy with your life the way that it is away from work, that's really just becomes the focus. And so you're, I just feel that

45:31  
it's an opportunity to find more happiness in work, too. There's a lot of talk about, like, the toxic environments in that book, right, which we're going to link to in the show notes. And by the way, if you're part of our book big, who knows? I think we're, I think for next, next book big, I was saying I want to, like, donate my choice to our only Jans, and, like, we'll do a vote or something. Yeah, so maybe that's one of the contenders. Because I think this book I've only I read, like, certain chapters, but I haven't read it in full

45:57  
yet. Well, I'm halfway through elves in love, fairies in love. I know I'm more than halfway now, and shit is happening. And so anyway, I'm not gonna say about Listen, we don't. I want to just take the last few minutes the show to talk about a friend of mine who passed away. Neil McGonigal, passed away a few days ago. And for those of you listeners who have been following along with us this past year or so, I've spoken about Neil and and working with him as my very first manager back in the 80s and the early 90s. And Neil, Neil was very responsible for, you know, picking my sorry ass out of night clubs when I was just drinking a lot and I was very hit and miss and and, you know, singing cover tunes and jazz songs, and once in a while, I'd put in one of my own tunes. Anyway, Neil and I worked together for probably a decade in the early days, and that wasn't the fun part that was out there, rolling our sleeves up, traveling around, trying to get record deals, making demos, you know, working nightclubs, but he had some health issues, and I think he was 78 I think Neil was born in 1946 but Neil McGonagall, I'm so glad I was at in the last four or five months that he and I mended fences. We hadn't seen each other for 25 years, and you know, we just, we parted ways, you know, after those eight or nine years of working together, and it wasn't great, and we just neither of us spoke to each other, and this doesn't seem like an opportunity. And then I have to hand it to Neil, a mutual friend of ours, had passed away, and I had phoned Neil and and just said how sorry I was. And then he extended, like, Let's go for coffee and, and I was so nervous about going.

47:46  
That was about a year ago, and you asked our listeners for advice on if you should go or not. I remember this,

47:51  
yeah. And we just, we spoke for, you know, hours, and the last, you know, he gave me a hug and he said, I love you, Jan. And I said, I love you, Neil. And we talked about so many things, and he showed me so many clips that he had of me from early days that I was just like, what? Oh, my God, girl that got fired. Yeah, Neil was, you know, we parted ways, but anyway, we were supposed to get together. And he just said he wasn't feeling great. And then Russ, my guitar player, let me know that he'd passed away. But yeah, I'll tell you what, if you have an opportunity to man defense and to make things right, you just don't know where life is going to take you. And I had a lot of peace in my heart. You know, he had a really good life. You know, it wasn't tragic. He knew for, I think, quite several years that, you know, his his health was, you know, precarious at best, and he was very open about it when we had coffee that day a year ago, like he spoke very openly about it and the challenges that he was facing. But, oh, I'm so glad that he gave me the opportunity to meet him and have coffee and and, yeah, so I feel very peaceful about it. I think, had he passed away, where we were still sort of living, I would have been devastated, and I'm not. I have a lot of joy in my heart and for the work that we did together and we were a team, and we got, you know, I'm sitting here talking to you guys because of Neil, and you know, he was, he was very, very, very important to me in my career. And like I said, he just, he just plucked me out of the mire and and was absolutely steadfast in his belief in my ability and my songwriting ability. And he just, you know, anyway, safe travels. Neil McGonagall, and thank you so much for everything you did for me and my very best to his family, his partner, Beth, who I'm sure are just, you know, not terribly sad right now, and to all his friends into, you know, a music community that he nurtured, and all the musicians and singers and songwriters that he's mentored over the years, I'm sure it's a big blow to them as well. So anyway, safe. Travels, Neil, and thanks for everything.

50:02  
This is like therapy today, like,

50:04  
reminds me of the conversation we were having, again with Lauren Christina, where we're talking about closure. And that really is the value of closure, that, like, bad things can happen in life and things that are sad will happen, but if you have some closure, the way it all went down and was handled, then I think that's really valuable, sort of as you progress along emotionally.

50:21  
Yeah, yeah, no, it's made all the difference. I, I was, I wasn't shocked to hear him passing away and but I had a lot of peace in my heart, and I had a smile on my face. I I don't mean to be, you know, I'm not cheery. I'm sad that, you know, but I, I just feel relieved. And I'm sure he did too. I mean, who knows? Maybe he hung around long enough to have that time with me and to fix that, you know, I have to hand it to him. But it's weird to read. It's weird to read through a message, an iMessage thread of conversations from a few days ago. You know, maybe we can get together on Monday or Tuesday, like it's so freaky. Yeah, that is, that is really and I sent him an I love you in a text. I knew he was gone, but I texted his number, his name and his phone number, and I just said, I love you, Neil. And it was, you know, kind of choke me up. That's really

51:15  
common. I've listened to a lot of podcasts and stuff on grief, and a lot of people do that. And some people, some family members, don't have the heart to shut off their loved ones phones. Ones phones where they want they want that, or they don't want to shut off their voicemail, they sort of keep it there. So, yeah, that's a that's actually

51:30  
I just did. I thought there's something about the unconscious self, and I feel like we vibrate on a whole different level. And I figure if things, if shit, can go into the cloud, my I love you. Neil, can go in the cloud. Can go up to wherever he is, and he can feel that electronic message. But it's funny what we do to communicate these last final things. But anyway, yes, voice notes. Let's see what we got.

51:54  
Okay, here we go. Good morning, Jan, to sort us and to Poppy. My name is Cindy, and I'm calling because not only do I and my fiance Michelle, absolutely adore everything that makes you you, she absolutely watches your podcast daily. I get nightly updates. I was just wondering how I could go about maybe Jann on getting you to to give her a shout out, she talks about wanting to do it all the time, but just hasn't, and I really would love to make that happen for her, if maybe you could, yeah, that would be wonderful. We're doing it right now. PS, we saw you in Moncton. We were front row, and you kicked ass. Your speech was boss. So yeah, thank you so much for coming to the east coast and just inspiring. And motivating and empowering so many women, thank you, and I couldn't be happier for you. Okay, have a wonderful day. I

53:14  
was hoping you'd get to that. Thank you so much. We're giving a shout out to you right now, dear listener. I was

53:19  
just gonna say you also have a link that people can go to, which we'll put in the show notes, where you record things for special people.

53:26  
Yeah, Janice can't hear you. Well, we

53:28  
don't want to charge them 99 US dollars, but you're getting a shout out right now because she's going to be watching this on YouTube. So guess what? You made it onto the podcast. Your partner loves you. You came and saw me in Moncton. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being awesome, and we appreciate our listeners so much. You have no idea. Okay, one more.

53:46  
Okay, Hello, girls. This is Billy calling from the lower 48 but I don't think there any borders tonight. Saturday night. I've just listened to a nice version of O Canada, and I want to wish the Toronto Blue Jays great luck. I'm really rooting for him. I think everybody in North America is I know that's your team, Sarah. You have to be a nervous wreck, but they're gonna do it. I wish you all luck, and it's it's great fun.

54:21  
Go Canada. Love what a great way to end the show. You know what the whole of North America is cheering for? You guys. Listen, we talked about that, and we and we, we think that's true as well. We think people totally got into the spirit of what sportsmanship is and teamwork is and and that you don't have to be making $52 million a year to freaking strike out a record number of people in, you know, in a major league baseball game. But anyway, that's our show for today. You can leave voice notes by going on to the Jann Arden pod website. And it's really easy. It's you literally click the button and you can ask us anything. Yeah. Looks like a little microphone, and you can make comments. You can give a shit. You can tell

55:04  
us that we're do not take a shit on the voice notes. Absolutely don't take a

55:08  
shit on the voice notes. No, but it would make for an interesting

55:13  
band. You'll be banned.

55:15  
You'll be at least shadow banned.

55:16  
Let us know what you thought of our guest today. I feel like that conversation. Have you been fired? Let us know. Tell us the story you got two minutes though, so keep it concise, or you can

55:27  
leave four stories in a row. So we don't know if we'll play them all, but you know, thank you for listening. Patreon. We're going to be talking about my tour coming up, and kind of what that looks like. I want

55:38  
to talk about something specific called grim, keeping grim,

55:41  
keeping Okay, there you go. We learn a new word in Patreon every week with Caitlin, so come for that,

55:46  
but yeah, thanks for listening. If you're not a Patreon member, what a great Christmas gift. Five bucks a month. Seven Bucks if you want to join the book bag, you can find out all about that on the Jan Arden podcast web page. But thanks for listening. Caitlin, Sarah, as always, you're kicking ass. Thanks to our guests today, Laura and Christina and their great book, you can find all that information in the show notes. We will see you next time all the cool girls get fired. Totally. Do you.